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FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

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Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#241

Post by deeg »

throwawaysea wrote: post #48
acdha wrote: post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

It’s not a pivot for me, particularly since I got the vaccine, but I think there are legitimate reasons to be hesitant and removing one reason doesn’t invalidate other reasons people may bring up. The big one in my mind is how do Pfizer, BioNTech, or the FDA validate safety of the vaccine over the long term? For instance what if it turns out that something approved today turns out to be carcinogenic twenty years from…

I understand the long-term concern but it needs to be balanced out with the known dangers of contracting COVID. While it's possible--if extremely unlikely--that the vaccine will have detrimental effects we that COVID causes serious problems. Over 600k Americans have died, millions more have been hospitalized, and some people who have recovered still have long-term problems.

People who avoid the vaccine are akin to people who don't wear seat belts because they might drown if their car falls into the water.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#242

Post by mlang23 »

michaelbuckbee wrote: post #221
version_five wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. No doubt this will be the case for some. So, you've found a logical flaw in people's stated reasons for not wanting a vaccine. How does that help anything? In these kinds of debates, the actual goals or beliefs of both sides often differ from what they say. For example, the government being able…

I recent came across a technique for having a more substantial discussion and it was to ask: "Well, what would it take for you to change your mind?" Not that this is a silver bullet that automatically leads to peace and harmony, but it's a step in the right direction.

Why does this technique change anything? You are still assuming the supposed superior position, since you imply that the stance of your discussion partner is wrong and needs to be changed. Dont you see how patronising this is?

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#243

Post by miked85 »

endisneigh wrote: post #207
miked85 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You literally posted the part describing how much effectiveness has dropped with variants.

Two doses of Moderna is still highly effective. What are you going to do? Stay unvaccinated? Given that both Pfizer and Moderna have virtually no side effects why wouldn’t you get it at these efficacy rates, even if lower?

I've got the vaccine, I am not saying don't get it. I am saying those who choose not to get it have very valid reasons for it.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#244

Post by NineStarPoint »

peakaboo wrote: post #94
cbg0 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely than not, they'll just move the goalposts farther and find a different excuse for not getting it.

Even if true, so what? It's their bodies. They should be allowed to choose, just like you are.

Because in cases like this, the choice they’re making with their body can be directly responsible for the hospitalization and death of other people in their vicinity. Vaccines aren’t fool proof, every person who doesn’t take the vaccine is an increased chance for those who did take the vaccine to get exposed to a breakthrough case.

I know I wouldn’t want to work in person at any place that didn’t have a vaccine mandate. Once vaccines are approved for children, I think people’s options should be to either vaccinate their child or homeschool them, since if I had children I wouldn’t want them exposed to the unvaccinated. The federal and state governments forcing everyone to get the shot would be a step too far for me, but I’m very much in support of it being hard to be a part of society if you refuse to take one of the most basic steps to protect other people in it.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#245

Post by acdha »

linuxftw wrote: post #223
enumjorge wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again with this argument. This particular decision with their bodies is harming others. Getting really drunk and driving home is also a decision about your body. So is smoking inside restaurants. Those have been illegal for a while. For those of us who got the vaccine, we’re still having to take precautions because of the delta variant spikes, largely from people who didn’t get a vaccine. Where is our choice?

> we’re still having to take precautions because of the delta variant spikes, largely from people who didn’t get a vaccine That's because the manufacturers lied about efficacy in the first place. The whole theory for these mRNA vaccines was that by targeting the 'spike' protein, the vaccine would be resistant to mutant strains because that protein is what binds to the ACE2 receptors and allows infection. If that prot…

When exactly did the manufacturers lie about efficacy? Be specific, and cite your sources.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#246

Post by nanis »

nl wrote: post #144
nanis wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you put on your tinfoil hat by mistake there buddy. Condescension is not helpful. > Net breakthrough deaths, ..., is not a real metric. What terminology would you recommend for getting the number of people who died from Covid19 after being fully vaccinated against Covid19? >> Deaths† 1,587 (20%) >> †341 (21%) of 1,587 fatal cases reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19. The numbers are from the…

Are you claiming this is good or bad? By comparison, in some years the influenza vaccine is under 40% effective. 0.9 deaths per 1 million is amazing (especially given the likely age profile). See https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200902/how-effective-is-th... for some information about the flu vaccine. In April the vaccination rate was much lower. In a hypothetical situation where 100% of people are vaccinated, all C…

> Are you claiming this is good or bad?

Neither. In April, the rate of death from Covid19 among those fully vaccinated against Covid19 was 0.9/million.

By August 9, it was at 7.5/million. CDC used to provide updates every Friday for the preceding Monday. The rate increased with every report.

The last update was on August 13. So, I wondered why they had not updated on Friday this time.

I see now that they just posted an update since this thread started[1] and after the approval was announced. This will increase my posterior belief that the update had been held back to happen after the approval announcement for political reasons.

Total deaths: 1,829

Asymptomatic or not Covid19 related: 371

Rate (1,829 - 371)/168 = 8.7/million. Up again.

[1]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/bre...

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#247

Post by linuxftw »

thehappypm wrote: post #183
c7DJTLrn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concern? Why? The virus is under control in countries where the vaccine rollout has been swift. Why do you sound so keen to force something on people that they don't want, regardless of their reasons? Shouldn't people have the right to choose what they take? If people can lose their jobs over it then clearly they don't have that right - that's a form of coercion/blackmail. I think the focus on a small minority of peo…

Because getting COVID becomes a problem for every person you come in contact with! Getting vaccinated protects you first, but also stops you from personally handing a disease to everyone you're in contact with. The people around you shouldn't be punished because you like Fox News.

100% false. The vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#248

Post by criticaltinker »

version_five wrote: post #83
acdha wrote: post #6

I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. I think a huge factor will be how many employers, colleges, etc. are now willing and legally able to require vaccination. It’s one thing to say you trust something you read on Facebook more than your doctor and quite another to walk away from a job because of it.

> I’m wondering what the odds are that people will pivot from “it’s experimental” to “it was rushed due to politics/greed”. No doubt this will be the case for some. So, you've found a logical flaw in people's stated reasons for not wanting a vaccine. How does that help anything? In these kinds of debates, the actual goals or beliefs of both sides often differ from what they say. For example, the government being able…

Up-voted because you called out GP's comment for the subtle flame-bait that it is, and avoided feeding into it. There's a lot of emotional discussion here appealing to the ignorance of one group or another, and very little thoughtful discussion of nuances and tradeoffs.

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#249

Post by Pyramus »

giantg2 wrote: post #188
bart_spoon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which still wouldn't be a logical argument, given that the same applies regarding long-term health outcomes regarding getting sick with Covid. But I suspect you are right.

I think that depends on the theories that one has. Either choice would be based on missing or incomplete data. For example, one could question the potential for autoimmune conditions due to the way the mRNA vaccine works and how the immune system typically targets multiple proteins on the cell. There's no data or studies our there about this longterm possibility or even the incidence of autoimmune antibodies produced…

Could you explain what you mean by that?

We already know Covid can cause autoimmune issues in some patients, so are you saying the effect you describe is just a subset of these, or different?

Re: FDA Approves First Covid-19 Vaccine

#250

Post by dolni »

enumjorge wrote: post #149
peakaboo wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if true, so what? It's their bodies. They should be allowed to choose, just like you are.

Again with this argument. This particular decision with their bodies is harming others. Getting really drunk and driving home is also a decision about your body. So is smoking inside restaurants. Those have been illegal for a while. For those of us who got the vaccine, we’re still having to take precautions because of the delta variant spikes, largely from people who didn’t get a vaccine. Where is our choice?

> Getting really drunk and driving home is also a decision about your body. So is smoking inside restaurants.

Smelly analogy is smelly. You're talking about the difference between very specific behaviors being prohibited versus blacklisting half of the population from participating in society with vaccine mandates (many of whom are black, by the way). It's not even close to a valid comparison.

I get the sense that the overlap of people who are pro-mandatory-vaccine and pro-choice is pretty high, being that they are both liberal positions. "My body, my choice" is just fine for women's reproductive rights, even if it meant taking away a baby's chance to live. All of a sudden "my body, my choice" doesn't sound so good?

I got both of my shots but I am so tired of people blaming anti-vaxxers. Give me a vaccine good enough that I don't have to worry about it. Today, I'm literally going to get a COVID test despite having both my vaccine doses. Why? Apparently my government isn't capable of providing useful guidance to keep me safe. We keep hearing about masks, but the mandate got dropped and there was never any talk about mandating the clearly superior KN95 or N95 masks.

Anti-vaxxers have been consistent from the beginning that they're not getting vaccinated. You know whose position keeps changing? FDA & CDC. Whether it's how effective the vaccine is, what the side effects are, do we need to wear masks, how much social distancing is required, whether or not a booster is useful...

You and everyone else blaming anti-vaxxers are letting the government redirect blame for its own failures.

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