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Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

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Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#241
post #192
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fundamental problem with Agile This is not what the article is about. If you look at the Agile Manifesto, it says e.g. - Individuals and interactions over processes and tools - Responding to change over following a plan What you get in quite a few big companies following "Agile" with the air quotes is the opposite: - Processes and tools over individuals and interactions - Following (and making) a plan over resp…

The agile manifesto was the problem. It's a vague as hell set of proscriptions that everybody could project their own ideas on to that got turned into a pseudo-religion. I once had it used against me to justify not writing tests ("processes and tools!"). We had meetings about bugs instead. Seriously. Complain all you like about perversion, that was a perfectly valid interpretation coz those hallowed commandments are,…

> Scrum (the catholic church to agile's christian sect)

At least the Church only had confession once a week in private.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#242
Agile is like a perfect example of a lot of things. Publishing a "manifesto" makes the revolution analogy on-the-nose.

Dissident manifestos tend to share a the same failure point. They're heavy on critique of the system that they want to overthrow, hand-wavy on the system that they want to enact.

The Communist Manifesto, to pick on the obvious example, is mostly about capitalism, other (wrong) versions of socialism.. notably reactionary socialism. It's also about the struggle to bring about revolution. There's surprisingly few paragraphs about what communism will do differently, once the revolution takes place. Liberal revolutionary manifestos was similar, with French and american revolutionaries settling (or not) on a system of government only after overthrowing monarchy.

The agile manifesto does outline a lot of how agile works, but the most compelling part was its description of "waterfall" and all its ills.

Liberalism and communism, in their idyllic literature, never really contended with the fact that these were alternative methods of "ruling over a population." Agile never contented with Agile was as a people management system. Well... Agile is a way of telling developers what to do. It is a people management system.

Where its completely unlike the political analogy is that agile was derived from working systems. It wasn't just an idealization. Ironically though, it ends up in the same place. What worked well for particular teams became the ideals.

I think the ultimate stinker though, was the "political economy" of agile. A company where everything works great isn't going to tear out their process and bring in consultants to implement a new management system. It's companies that are failing to produce software well that do this.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#244
post #57

The fundamental problem with Agile is the fundamental problem with all product development: The customer doesn't know what they want Agile assumes as a first principal that including the customer throughout the development process will align the building team and the customer to come to the same conclusion. This is almost never actually true. Having built and managed a lot of products I can state fairly confidently t…

> The fundamental problem with Agile This is not what the article is about. If you look at the Agile Manifesto, it says e.g. - Individuals and interactions over processes and tools - Responding to change over following a plan What you get in quite a few big companies following "Agile" with the air quotes is the opposite: - Processes and tools over individuals and interactions - Following (and making) a plan over resp…

Exactly I did a couple of very early agile projects for BT in 94 One using RAD/DSDM and one using a waterfall design with a RAD development phase

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#245
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of coaches and scrum masters is the result of decisions of management, that see agile as a way of getting daily reports from the team through the daily standup. I don’t think that people who don't write or never wrote software should have a place in a software development team. We don’t allow scrum masters and agile coaches in hospitals and ask them to “improve the process”, because we know the only “im…

This is exactly what drove me off my last team. We were seasoned developers with a combined experience of more than 50 years, 25 of them in scrum. And we were assigned a scrum master that never worked in software development before, fresh of the scrum master training and was telling us in a very condescending tone, how we could improve ourselves and our team. That guy didn't know anything about software development,…

How can you even get a Job as a "scrum master" with no experience in development or the industry.

You should collectively have just refused to work for them in this case.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#246
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The agile manifesto was the problem. It's a vague as hell set of proscriptions that everybody could project their own ideas on to that got turned into a pseudo-religion. I once had it used against me to justify not writing tests ("processes and tools!"). We had meetings about bugs instead. Seriously. Complain all you like about perversion, that was a perfectly valid interpretation coz those hallowed commandments are,…

They’re purposely ill defined. The outputs they seek are emergent. You also belittle scrum for becoming too specific. Seems you’re still processing what to make of any of it. Knowledge work is immaterial and should have no prescribed rails or all you get is run of the mill outputs. It’s similar to business; billions have been spent investigating what technology or management style brought the biggest gains. The math…

>They’re purposely ill defined.

Yes they were. The cynical side of me says that this was because they were purposefully trying to create a rallying cry or something akin to a religion to better sell their wares and were unconcerned about the fallout that would ensue.

The less cynical side of me says they did it because they came up with "extreme programming" and knew that a lot of it was kind of bullshit, disagreed with each other on the details, but wanted some way to push people in "that sort of direction".

The net result either way was... well, a kind of religion.

>You also belittle scrum for becoming too specific.

No, I didn't belittle scrum for being specific. It's one of the good things about it. It is, however, a specifically defined bad way of running a team. We do need designed processes as specific as scrum, that are less one-size-fits-all and that have a more systematic and refined approach to software quality, estimation and design.

"Scrumban" is definitely an improvement, but even that is still lacking.

I'd like to see software team processes treated in many respects as a kind of "software to run teams", specifically meaning:

* That it gets iterated frequently and responds to feedback at every level (not just team, but philosophically - by its founders).

* That it's clearly and precisely defined.

* That there are a variety of different config switches depending on circumstances (e.g. number of people, skill distribution, are you building CRM or flying space rockets, etc.).

* That the individual pieces (e.g. retros, sprint planning) can be chopped and changed and upgraded/iterated on individually and yet still couple to each other sensibly - akin to the UNIX philosophy.

>Knowledge work is immaterial and should have no prescribed rails

No, anarchy is no good either.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IN my experience, the same two or three people speak up in retrospectives… and no one else, ever.

Then you might have an inexperienced manager or moderator. All it takes is "Hey John, I didn't hear you in the discussion yet. What are your thoughts?". "If there was 1 thing we should improve, what do you think it should be?". Stuff like that. I know even then it's sometimes hard, but at least you should try pulling things out of them.

> Then you might have an inexperienced manager or moderator.

More likely you have people who are paid to do some workload which they are generally happy with. They aren't going to be motivated into doing more by accident, especially through their own action. This is the vast majority of people in the world, so good luck countering that momentum over the long term.

Effective software project management is an interesting and hard problem, granted, so many people are interested in how to tackle it. I get it.

What I see is that "agile" criticisms are really criticisms of it's inefficacy in giving employers more for their dollar from the employee perspective. I don't see why I should get too invested in minimizing my relative value.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#248
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... your team with a strong lead or more senior developers could work with a regular pm and get the job done. Let me show you where this slippery slope ends: Teams with a strong lead or more senior developers could work without any PMs and still get the job done. Oh. Wait a second. This happens all the time! Does this mean those teams achieved their success without any management happening? Or does it mean that tec…

If work activities is about titles, I hope yours is multiple lines long. We are talking about what is the most efficient. One of the point of Agile was to attempt to lower the division of tasks (and I'm saying that even if I don't like the way it was attempted nor the overall effect 20 years later) because having a broader vision of things is more efficient than trying to communicate (to what I would add: IF the proj…

> If work activities is about titles ...

It isn't, and I'm not going to go there. But discussion about work activities does need appropriate and accurate labels, for it to be effective.

> So if that means more people do "management", in a context where this is beneficial, then... good? What is exactly the problem?

Who said it's not good or that there's a problem? I didn't.

> You think they are paid too little? Maybe, but then it switches from a work methodology to a salary negotiation problem.

I don't know what I wrote that leads you to believe this, but I said nothing like this. You seem to be reading too far into things I wrote; or worse, things I never wrote.

----

To try and clarify what I meant and where I was going: I was talking about accurately identifying the work that actually happens. Specifically, I was trying to show my parent commenter, ipaddr, how their erasure of such work leads to poor results for everyone involved, including the people trying to even talk about it.

I'm not trying to argue for a better salary or title — I've already got too much and too many of those, as you hope. But I've seen this very discussion happen too many times with clients of mine, with the same devolution. People think their problems will be solved if they get a good "PM". If said PM lacks technical background, they think they can just pair them with a good senior engineer and all will be good. I've seen this fail enough to know that's not how it works; and not because the senior engineer wasn't "senior" enough or "good" enough. As I said elsewhere[1] in this thread: There does exist a big difference between "lead or senior developers" who are good at development and those who are also good at using their technical knowledge to manage a team's work. A non-technical PM lacks that essential latter part, and if they have to rely on a "developer" to step up and fill that role, they're still a PM, but they're not the sole person doing PM any more.

Failure to identify when there's more than one person fulfilling management responsibilities can and does lead to poor planning and hindered execution.

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27947644

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The air quotes sell it. It's easy to blame management because developers and engineers haven't the foggiest idea what management actually does. Instead of engaging with that problem, they retreat to themselves where they hiss the name management in dark corners. Fact is: Developers are incapable of self organising, and would drown overnight without management's stiff hand. I absolutely hate how accurate that is becau…

> Fact is: Developers are incapable of self organising, and would drown overnight without management's stiff hand. I beg to differ. A dev team doing agile, with a team leader who is a manager/dev, can definitely self-organise. The team leader interfaces with non-dev management, removes roadblocks, and in collaboration with the rest of the devs sets the direction for a sprint. You need this team lader role to keep the…

I agree - though unfortuetly it seems its less common for developers to experience working in a well formed and efficient team these days.

Re: Agile at 20: The Failed Rebellion

#250
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the theory, except on the customer side you actually need the people that will use the product. Usually what happens is that you get a customer team, that is supposed to voice how the organization wants the software to be. So the same mismatch is bound to happen anyway. And when they do involve the people from the field, depending on the company culture, they might even be quite positive on the demos (cause b…

This is (IMHO) the biggest single miss in most attempts to be "Agile". The customer/end user is supposed to be embedded in the team, doing actual work with the program, raw and hacky as it may be. This way the feedback is immediate and accurate. Passively watching smoke and mirror demos once every sprint is a far cry from this. Of course, this isn't applicable/possible for all types of software (you can't really iter…

Co located teams is what you really need (sorry WFH fans)
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