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Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

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Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#241

Post by stevenicr »

Volt wrote: post #235
livinginfear wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this being downvoted? It's demonstrably true. https://blog.cloudflare.com/why-we-terminated-daily-stormer/

Is Cloudflare a "pipe"? I don't think so.

reason for "no longer a dumb pipe," - is that I believe that was the 'defense' aka reason being used for a while to push back against different groups that were accusing and then trying to public shame cloudflare; for protecting alt-right(?) I know there were a few PR pieces pushed in the UK or Euro press about some things - maybe hookers or something.. anyway for a while cloudflare was all like, we are just a really big pipe that pushes data and can absorb ddos.. we don't get into content moderation or opposite-net-neautrality.. there were complaints that some groups 'on the right side of history (or whatever)' - were trying to take down the stormer site I think it was and that their co-ordinated takedown attempts were failing as cloudflare was protecting the send/receive, being a pipe, not a judge.. This is what I believe ATT was using as a defense some time ago; they don't stop drug dealers from making calls they just provide the 'pipe' There was also some groups complaining about cloudflare making it hard to find servers - to find jurisdiction, again uk /euro I think - I have those articles saved on one of my systems.. and may be linked to a HN comment long ago - where I said chipping away at this pipe thine will lead to a bifurcated internet - where we will have internet place X internet place Y - and companies like cloudflare may have to turn into a dozen different companies to keep up with the changing 'this speech is not okay' rules for various places..

funny how fast things can change.

I believe many of cloudflare's early customers especially felt protected and safe because of the stances - and I bet most don't know about the 180..

I also think most average web people would think if you set 'whatever' for your DNS - that the dns routing is basically a dumb pipe - it's not spying on you and sending copies of your data to gun agencies.

Just as I think most people would not expect their cell phone company or internet provider to spy on data and send snippets of your communications to agents. I would not expect my web server co to deep packet inspect all comms looking for bad things. (not without a warrant and being directed to look at a specific line, now a whole data center / cell co, etc.)

I think it was a terrible choice to make for cloudflare, but I know not an easy one either way.

So 'pipe' is a term that has been used in this way for a while now in similar fashion I thought - and it's not meant literally like a copper water line.

Also in some ways cloudflare has been a pipe - a pipe for flowing data that would be choked by ddos attack if were to try to send/receive across the net in most other ways kinda of.

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#242

Post by 9935c101ab17a66 »

perl4ever wrote: post #210
sofixa wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Bloomberg ruin their tech reputation with the still-unproven (years later) and probably baseless claims of nano chips planted in the supply chain of Supermicro ?

People keep asking that. Seems like every few weeks for however long it's been, I see a comment like yours. I haven't seen anyone mention what news source meets the standard of never having published an article with insufficient evidence according to one or more people on the internet. I mean, obviously not the NY Times, for instance, right?

The combination of: the absolutely terrible article being an obvious hit piece, the potential damage of the claims with almost no real evidence to back them up, and the complete lack of contrition or accountability.

I don’t think it ruined Bloomberg’s reputation entirely (I still love and frequently read Money Stuff), but it did eviscerate any credibility they had in highly technical, investigative technology reporting. And the refusal to admit the failures publicly definitely calls into question their editorial process and organizational culture.

Also, the idea that ‘thing x’ shouldn’t be criticized because ‘thing y’ is also bad is pretty clear “whataboutism” and an unhelpful way to address valid criticism.

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#243

Post by Dah00n »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #121
Dah00n wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then the question becomes Did Amazon let police gather evidence before touching anything?

> So then the question becomes Did Amazon let police gather evidence before touching anything? Why does that become the question? If I fire a customer, must I ask the police for permission first? America isn't a police state. And we don't have general data retention laws. The First Amendment contains both the freedom of speech and freedom of assembly; there is a balance between Parler's freedom to spew rubbish and Am…

When you changed it. To use your own words, if you "suspect someone is using my services to break the law or engage in terrorism" and you then delete all evidence then you are absolutely tampering with evidence. If AWS was used to DDoS all hospitals in the US and people died, would you see a move by Amazon to delete all trace as just fine and dandy "because the US isn't a police state"? I doubt that. It doesn't matter if it is a small or big crime; knowingly deleting evidence is a crime too.

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#244

Post by javajosh »

perl4ever wrote: post #211
freeflight wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the FISA court only exists to rubber-stamp warrants. In 33 years the FISA court granted 33,942 warrants, in that same time only 12 were denied, a rejection rate of 0.03% [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intellig...

The rejection rate, in a vacuum, isn't evidence that they are rubber stamping warrants. From a logical perspective, it could mean that those submitting requests are able to avoid sending weak ones and choose to do so. I'm not saying I believe you/the standard view is wrong, but there must be some other evidence.

On the contrary, a rejection rate that low implies rubber-stamping, prima facie. You would need positive evidence to support your assertion, e.g. that FISA submissions are unusually high-quality. The actual case is, I am sure, that the system was constructed to make allowing the warrant to be easy, rejecting it hard, and the people involved are just responding to incentives. Namely, since it's all secret they are only accountable to each other, so why give each other a hard time?

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#245

Post by funcDropShadow »

ben_w wrote: post #178
DSingularity wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! Let’s stay in a present where Israeli hackers-for-hire can help dictatorships capture and murder dissidents. At a minimum we should demand transparency and accountability from all of these scale-enabling organizations.

Obviously I am not in favour of that either. Making takedowns automatic on any user report means the dictators take down the apps of the dissidents. In the absence of AI that would necessarily have to be good enough to also radically change society and the economy, the only solution I can even think of is a big increase in funding for the policing of apps. Who exactly would fund that? Governments would want to use su…

Or we could use a different architecture for our applications that isn't so easily taken down. You know like locally installed apps, that can do something without the cloud overlord pushing new code with every pixel or character that is transmitted.

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#246

Post by ta988 »

dpifke wrote: post #159
TechBro8615 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t be so quick to rush into a future where Amazon takedowns are as easy as YouTube DMCA requests.

In the meantime, Google and Amazon simply ignore all complaints about spam originating from their networks. In the olden days of the internet, ISPs that ignored abuse complaints would be blocked by their peers. Now that Gmail and AWS are too big to block, they act with impunity.

This is complicated when you see how non-ethical companies like Lyft are messing with competition I wouldn't be surprised they would flood provider with spam-reports...

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#247

Post by wpietri »

midev wrote: post #236
wpietri wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang. Everybody else! That's a lot of people. You must have done a great deal of work to check with them all, so clearly I have to yield. I had no idea the entire rest of humanity was so passionate about corporate branding guidelines.

What a cringe reply. I'd love to introduce you to a new word: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hyperbole

Oh no! Now an internet random thinks I'm cringe. Since we're criticizing other people's language choices today, I'll mention that everyone (absolutely everyone) thinks nobody older than 14 should use that word.

Seriously, bub, my problem isn't the hyperbole. It's that you're universalizing your personal preference as a way to try to dominate people. It might work on others, but you won't find an old software developer who minds being called "weird". We were all thought weird.

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#248

Post by justinclift »

bob1029 wrote: post #161
justinclift wrote: post #2

Ouch. > The Amnesty report said NSO is also using services from other companies such as Digital Ocean, OVH, and Linode ... We've been using Digital Ocean for a few years now (sqlitebrowser.org), and they've been really good. Hopefully they look into this and take some useful action. :)

> sqlitebrowser.org Everyone at my company loves your tool. Please keep up the great work!

Awesome, thanks. :)

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#249

Post by justinclift »

wila wrote: post #14
justinclift wrote: post #2

Ouch. > The Amnesty report said NSO is also using services from other companies such as Digital Ocean, OVH, and Linode ... We've been using Digital Ocean for a few years now (sqlitebrowser.org), and they've been really good. Hopefully they look into this and take some useful action. :)

Thanks for working on sqlitebrowser!

You're welcome. :)

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#250

Post by justinclift »

TravelPiglet wrote: post #169
justinclift wrote: post #2

Ouch. > The Amnesty report said NSO is also using services from other companies such as Digital Ocean, OVH, and Linode ... We've been using Digital Ocean for a few years now (sqlitebrowser.org), and they've been really good. Hopefully they look into this and take some useful action. :)

Purged my account at DO now. Sad that companies like DO care more about money than a free society

Hmmm, maybe give them a change to look into it first?
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