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Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

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Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#241

Post by _djo_ »

pmelendez wrote: post #231
_djo_ wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the implication is that we believe that these algorithms are non-faulty and therefore throw away all the provisions for recourse and review that exist with human-driven systems. There is no nuance, no leeway, and no way for you to reason your case with a thinking human on the other side of the decision. The algorithms & systems are also almost always completely opaque in their workings, with neither the person on…

>No, the implication is that we believe that these algorithms are non-faulty I think that falls under OC's argument and it seems eventually solvable. Still, what you are pointing is a human bias. Humans have been taking similar unfair decisions without possibility for recourse or review since forever, so it would be interesting to have a review mechanism in general.

>I think that falls under OC's argument and it seems eventually solvable.

Not solvable by purely technical means and the idea that the AI or algorithms will just keep getting better, which is what the OP seemed to be saying.

> Still, what you are pointing is a human bias. Humans have been taking similar unfair decisions without possibility for recourse or review since forever, so it would be interesting to have a review mechanism in general.

Sure. Having systems be human-driven doesn't inherently make them better. But over time the recognition of human fallibility has led legislators to enforce the creation of systems of review and recourse in many cases.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#242

Post by pydry »

austhrow743 wrote: post #181
pydry wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that when this topic rears its head a common attitude comes out (although is never outright stated): * Governments are frequently corrupt and when they are they should be reformed. * Businesses are frequently corrupt and when they are they should be reformed. * Unions are frequently corrupt. They should therefore not exist. Realistically corruption is a feature of all human institutions. Unions are s…

You can't realistically abolish your government. Or at the least stop being governed by one. Other internal organisations will take its place or a foreign government will gobble you up. You can't realistically abolish businesses. An economy of just individual tradesmen all working independently cant come close to the efficiency gains a large business has and just straight up lack the capacity for large scale projects…

You can abolish government. The results arent pleasant (see 90s mogadishu) but you can. This is the goal of so called "ancaps". It's great if you enjoy being a warlord.

You can abolish businesses too. The 2nd largest economy from 1950-1970 did precisely that, TINA propaganda notwithstanding. Chinese SOEs also serve as a model for a business that isnt really a business. It's great if you're on the central committee.

You can abolish unions as well. The results also arent exactly pleasant for the 90% of people who rely on selling their labor to survive.

But it's fucking great for that top 10% if they dont exist.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#243

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #237
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't feel qualified to answer that. All I know is that something will fill the god-shaped hole. Pray it won't be communism or Critical Race Theory.

but who should I pray to then?

Since we're on HN, the local wojak's ersatz-god is the computer.

"SCIENCE says we're all living in a simulation, and probability suggests it was created by a COMPUTER."

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#244

Post by skohan »

sk4rekr0w wrote: post #32
skohan wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how anyone could seriously hold the position that labor and corporate interests are on equal footing in any way. The history of the last 40 years in US labor relations has been a very consistent trend towards the consolidation of corporate power, alongside the erosion of labor's power.

So 2 things: 1) I do not believe they are in equal footing generally and never stated that - I was pointing out the nuances with respect to Prop 22. Gig cos. didn't win just because they had more money - they won because AB5 is a despised policy. 2) Unions != Labor. Workers == Labor. This is the key point I'm trying to make.

> What they lack in economic resources, they make up for in political power via bureaucratic control.

This would seem to imply equal footing, wouldn't it?

> Unions != Labor. Workers == Labor. This is the key point I'm trying to make.

So I'm not sure how this is relevant to the prop 22 discussion - did the legislation have anything to do with unionization? As far as I know it was only about extending existing labor protections to gig workers.

And there's a distinction there, to be sure, albeit a pedantic one. Outside of organized labour, how exactly do these "workers" exert any power in the work place or politics?

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#245

Post by pc86 »

howaboutnope wrote: post #236
pc86 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AI is just humans hiding behind a machine. Just because people work on AI algorithms doesn't mean that this is true.

When an AI "decides" that someone should have no food tomorrow, there's always a human who set the AI up to do that, and there's always humans who honor this "decision", often while pretending that they have no choice, that they're mere messengers. No exceptions.

That's a lot of "always"s for a situation you're making up that hasn't happened. I wasn't aware there are AIs taking food out of people's kitchens!

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#246

Post by goodpoint »

fxtentacle wrote: post #50

Reading this, I'm so glad that in all of the EU it is illegal to fire someone purely based on a software decision. There's a minimum level of humanity that we should extend to everyone. Letting a known faulty AI decide if someone will have money for food tomorrow is way across the line. I'm not surprised that treating humans like cattle on their way to slaughter is hugely profitable. But I'm not sure we want to opera…

"the software said so" is 2020's way to denying something to someone while also trying to deflect blame.

Not very different from "not financially viable", "your health insurance have expired", "your credit score does not meet the requirements".

The decision of implementing such rules and methods and use such phrasing is entirely done by humans.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#247

Post by howaboutnope »

pc86 wrote: post #245
howaboutnope wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When an AI "decides" that someone should have no food tomorrow, there's always a human who set the AI up to do that, and there's always humans who honor this "decision", often while pretending that they have no choice, that they're mere messengers. No exceptions.

That's a lot of "always"s for a situation you're making up that hasn't happened. I wasn't aware there are AIs taking food out of people's kitchens!

Look at the context of this thread then and the comments upstream of mine. I was responding to someone who defended that, that ship sailed, you don't get to make this into something else now. It would be no use anyway, what I said doesn't just apply to that, it applies to any usage of AI by humans to make decisions on their behalf.

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#248

Post by declnz »

deregulateMed wrote: post #199
fxtentacle wrote: post #50

Reading this, I'm so glad that in all of the EU it is illegal to fire someone purely based on a software decision. There's a minimum level of humanity that we should extend to everyone. Letting a known faulty AI decide if someone will have money for food tomorrow is way across the line. I'm not surprised that treating humans like cattle on their way to slaughter is hugely profitable. But I'm not sure we want to opera…

I was a bit too ambitious/hard working, and a coworker made it her mission to get rid of me. After 2 years she succeeded. I admittedly didn't care because I got a higher paying job in a better field, but I'll take AI over office politics.

Yes - but this isn't an either/or situation...

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#249

Post by declnz »

flohofwoe wrote: post #145
WalterBright wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have historically complained a lot about firings not being based on an objective formula. Now the complaint is an objective formula is being used. > WW2 prisoner camps For starters, those camps would shoot anyone who tried to leave. Not the same thing at all.

> Now the complaint is an objective formula is being used. As programmers we really should know better than blindly trusting software.

I'm pretty sure not all HN readers are programmers...

Re: Jeff Bezos’ Dystopian Legacy Goes Far Beyond Amazon

#250

Post by Yoric »

golergka wrote: post #222
Yoric wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar enough with the situation in the US to comment for what's happening on your side of the ocean. In my country, there are laws to protect both sides. Unless an agreement is negotiated, the employee cannot leave without giving a ~2 months notice, the employer cannot fire/layoff withing giving a ~2 months notice. In many cases, though, there is a strong power imbalance. If, for some reason, you decide to…

This: > the employer cannot fire/layoff withing giving a ~2 months notice. Leads to this: > Both for highly skilled positions and unskilled positions, getting a new job is hard

That is a theory I've heard. I see how it may be true but I'm not convinced.

In particular

> Testimonies from friends in the US make me feel it's not as rosy as you describe, at least not in all fields/regions.

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