Sure, I will trust doctor Linus with this. And by the way, this email has been penned by a certain Enrico. After needless lockdowns and masks mandates you still think many millions of better educated people than this guy. There’s a shot for you… mine
Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
241–250 of 649 posts
Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
#242Absolutely agree with everything Linus says here. But I'm almost equally concerned that there's an awful lot of people on the pro-science bandwagon who don't actually support science, but simply don't tolerate dissent or questioning, and that's unscientific and potentially harmful too. I scanned most of the Pfizer trial and was wondering why we expected the immunity after the vaccine to last longer than natural immun…
If you read Linus's post then it seems that no mRNA sequence (not necessarily a vaccine) can ever do harm when injected into the body, but I doubt that is the case. I hope someone who is knowledgeable about the subject can explain whether that is true or not.
Natural mRNA sequences tend to contain uracil, which the immune system is not a fan of (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S152500161...). The innate immune system generally attacks extracellular mRNA because of this. The mRNA in vaccines are specially modified to bypass the immune system and be taken into cells, at which point they will be translated into spike proteins and be expressed on the cell’s surface. In conjunction with an adjuvant, the immune system will recognize this as a threat and begin producing antibodies.
It’s certainly possible that mRNAs could do harm: they could code for protein sequences that might disrupt cellular function, increase cancer risk (e.g. by disrupting DNA repair or even causing mutations), etc. The spike protein is none of these things - it just gets expressed on the cell’s surface - so the risk from the vaccine is low. And, crucially, once the mRNA runs out, no more protein will be produced: mRNAs are degraded after protein translation. This serves to generally limit the amount of lasting impact that an mRNA vaccine could possibly have.
Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
Same with the push for vaccine passports. Really gets my fur up and question why the need for heavy hands.
Serious question, how is a vaccine passport any different from a proof of immunization (one common form being the International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis), which is standard fare for travelling to/from many countries already? We’ve been using these to combat the spread of diseases like yellow fever for years.
It's being introduced to countries where such measures are new and it's being used within borders. The idea is that venue operators for concerts and other events will be checking your vaccination status.
I find that Black Mirror level dystopian personally.
Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
#244I am eagerly awaiting my vaccine, however we are all alpha/beta testers. A real concern is about safety of those vaccines as typically they require ~3 years of testing and a single fatality aborts their use. Would you give alpha version to people you love? Why is this concern downplayed? I understand statistics but we have no clue what could go wrong in an early version of a new technology and no data on long-term im…
Exactly. The vaccines did not go through the FDA’s typical approval process, they got emergency approval, but the standard approval process is still ongoing. mRNA vaccines have never been used in a large scale setting outside of clinical trials before. Are they safe? Almost certainly. Do we know that for sure yet? No. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? For me, yes.
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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
#245I cant +1 this enough. Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground.
> Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground. Being a pompous ass might feel good, especially when you think you are (or you actually are) smarter than your opponent, but it won't sway anyone. In fact, it does quite the opposite. If you're seriously trying to convince someone they're wrong, you need to be kind, be patient, and have a calm, productive discussion -…
I like just getting up and leaving without saying anything as soon as I realize someone's position on this, even if there is social obligations involved. It's a good way to send a signal without any real drama and these people are arrogant and grating to be around anyways
Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
#246Earlier quoted context omitted.
What did he say that you would consider to be wrong or unverified?
Well, there's a lot of evidence for mRNA transfer between species in other kingdoms; read on about reverse transcriptase [1] that is literally how some viruses spread when they enter the human body. Whether that mechanism still goes on when some of the components are missing, well, we presume it won't happen but there's not enough and definite evidence for that. And for those who love appealing to authority, I do hav…
I mean, I guess my follow up question is... where does the reverse transcriptase come from? My understanding is that the mRNA, by itself, isn't a retrovirus capable of integrating itself with your DNA. It's not built for it. There's no mechanism for reverse transcription in the mRNA in the vaccines, and the mRNA doesn't go near the nucleus of the cell, instead swimming around in the cytosol until a ribosome picks it up.
Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
#247Just to clear one thing: Vaccines actually do edit the genetic code, but only of some select B-cells. And so does any other antigen that your body develops antibodies for. The process is very complicated and beautiful, and is pretty much exactly the same as in plenty of other multicellular life forms. If you've ever wondered what's the "storage format" for all the recipes for all the different antibodies that your bo…
> The process is very complicated and beautiful
And all the molecular machinery in our body is much more complex than any software system.
Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
#248> The half-life of mRNA is a few hours. Any injected mRNA will be all gone from your body in a day or two. Can someone with more knowledge comment on whether this is true for components of the vaccine that aren't just the mRNA bits? I am not sure, but I assume there are various other components that form the delivery vehicle for the vaccine, stabilize it for storage, and so on. What are the actual mechanisms for thos…
Here's the list of excipients in the Pfizer vaccine:
1. ALC-0312 2. ALC-0159 3. 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine 4. cholesterol 5. potassium dihydrogen phosphate 6. sodium chloride 7. disodium hydrogen phosphate dihydrate 8. sucrose 9. water
The first four are various lipids, used to build the lipid nanoparticles. The body can get rid of those the same way that it would get rid any other lipid.
The remaining excepients are just some salts and sugar.
Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's what you don't seem to get. I'm not saying it does happen, neither am I saying it does not happen. There's not enough evidence, that's it. Why is that so hard to grasp? And there's evidence of it happening in plenty of other contexts, so one wouldn't be crazy to believe that at least, in principle, it could happen here as well.
> And there's evidence of it happening in plenty of other contexts, No, there isn't; “mRNA chromosomes” aren't a thing. The comment you replied to made as much sense as “the server rack isn't duplicated on the hard drive”; there's no evidence of it happening, because no possible real-world event corresponds to those words.
What? But I just put some references here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27466738
Those are peer-reviewed published papers ... and you chose to ignore them? Laughable.
Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines
#250I cant +1 this enough. Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground.
> Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground. Being a pompous ass might feel good, especially when you think you are (or you actually are) smarter than your opponent, but it won't sway anyone. In fact, it does quite the opposite. If you're seriously trying to convince someone they're wrong, you need to be kind, be patient, and have a calm, productive discussion -…
Have we watched the same Linus for the past few decades?
This is very tame, all things considered, and he does take the time to try and educate the individual on the matter. I for one appreciate him doing this.