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Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

rarehistoricalphotos.com

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Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#241

Post by whimsicalism »

kumarvvr wrote: post #237
whimsicalism wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say we won Gulf war II, we've definitely lost Syria by now, Afghanistan probably lost. That said, many of the well-known, long haul conflicts that the US are involved in are the ones they are most likely to lose. The ones they win they usually win quickly and are less well known. There are plenty of interventions post-WWII that have been quick successes for the US, esp. in Latin America.

I would not classify Gulf war II as a "war". It was a blatant incursion, which even Saddam knew would not last, hence the focus on looting the victim, rather than planning for an occupation. Saddam bet that if no ones does anything concrete, he can get away with it, else, he can return back. I would call than an "occupation" rather than a "war". Edit : I retract my comment. I meant Gulf War I, the occupation of Kuwai…

The government was toppled, a provisional government was installed by the US, and then replaced by a government that was, at the time, US-aligned with democratic elections.

I think it was a bad war and a mistake, but I don't think we "lost."

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#242

Post by 1123581321 »

bnegreve wrote: post #219
1123581321 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not entirely fake. These colorization processes exaggerate information about the grayscale tones that our eyes can’t pick up due to subtlety or unfamiliarity with the time, place or people depicted. So while the colorized photos are not entirely faithful, they do tell us more about the scene the photo captured.

> These colorization processes exaggerate information about the grayscale tones that our eyes can’t pick up It is a machine learning model, so not really. Instead, the model makes an educated guess of the most likely color, based on vast amounts of pictures sampled un-uniformly from very different areas of the world.

Forgive me for the imprecise language—the bases for the educated guesses are the information I was referring to. Humans are not as good at seeing that a certain shade of gray is more likely to be light yellow than light blue, for example. You’re completely right that datasets trained on regions and historical information would produce more accurate results on black-and-white photos identified to the model as being from similar places and times.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#243

Post by jollybean »

abrookewood wrote: post #128
stolen_biscuit wrote: post #74

There's a lot of people in the comments saying that Vietnam didn't really "win" the war. Their political and military objectives were ultimately successful, those of the US/South Vietnam were not. That's what a victory is. The cost of victory was very high, but it was a pretty unambiguous success for the Vietnamese.

Wikipedia is pretty unambiguous: "Following Vietnamese victory against the French in the First Indochina War, which ended in 1954, the nation was divided into two rival states: communist North and anti-communist South. Conflicts intensified in the Vietnam War, which saw extensive American intervention in support of South Vietnam, while the Soviets and the PRC supported the North, which ended with North Vietnamese vic…

I'm doubtful that this is really the best way to put it.

The US escalated it's involvement until the early 1970's when via strategic bombing of the North (which the US was unwilling to do previously), decisively destroyed the North Vietnamese ability to fight.

Then, the Americans left.

A couple of years later, the North Vietnamese rehabilitated their forces, and invaded the South.

The reality is such different perspective than 'North Vietnam Won' to the point wherein it's basically almost misinformation to just state it like that.

Finally, the tactical and strategic advantage of the US bombing with Nixon was enormous. The US could have feasibly stayed for a long time - after shedding their fears of 'Bombing the North' and just 'doing it', they finally gained the 'obvious advantage' that a major power should have had.

But Nixon ran on a platform of 'Getting out of Vietnam', and the folks back home lost interest in a miasma of populism.

I think those nuances are important, because I think it demonstrates how tactics, politics and populism fuelled the outcome.

The lessons of 'Fight to Win Only' and 'A long grinding war will turn your population against you' are straight out of the Art of War.

Those lessons informed the 1st US invasion of Iraq (and 2cnd), which was led by Vietnam vets. 'Overwhelming Force and Boots on the Ground to Unambiguously Overwhelm Enemy Forces', though the 2cnd occupation didn't go quite as well.

Finally, literally one day after Barack Obama ordered the last US units out of Baghdad, then Iraqi PM Malaki ordered a purge of Sunnis from his party and government. The Sunni Tribes, in fear of their lives from the then-emboldened Shia dominated Iraqi Army ... invited ISIS in. This very well could have been avoided by keeping a few units, neatly tucked away 'behind the wire' in Baghdad - just enough ongoing oversight and leverage to keep people like Malaki from self-destructing. It would have been better in hindsight to take a longer view of that situation as well.

It's hard to say if there is a direct parallel with Vietnam but it kind of looks like that.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#244

Post by kumarvvr »

coliveira wrote: post #165
stolen_biscuit wrote: post #74

There's a lot of people in the comments saying that Vietnam didn't really "win" the war. Their political and military objectives were ultimately successful, those of the US/South Vietnam were not. That's what a victory is. The cost of victory was very high, but it was a pretty unambiguous success for the Vietnamese.

Many people in the US never accepted that they were defeated. And the US media did a good job of never making this point (the defeat against Vietnam) clear. It is a version of the "lost cause" phenomenon of the US south.

Yeah. The downfall of great nations begins with denying the reality. That slowly seeps into every nook and corner of the society, leading to rot from within. You can see this already happening in the US.

The drive is politics, the lube is the media. The denial of reality and the rejection of truth is more prominent than ever and it is showing its face everywhere in US politics.

As on date, for the last decade, no politician has ever resigned for lying or cheating, personally or professionally. The character and integrity of those in power is off the table for discussion (what he/she does in personal life is not for discussion)

Here is the fact. Perhaps in other jobs, white or blue collared ones, personal life may not affect the job. But when it comes to jobs that move the nation, political positions, powerful bodies, and what not, the personal character and integrity of the person ought to be the scale of foremost importance.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#245

Post by trhway »

mulmen wrote: post #218
trboyden wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a coincidence. My dad was an HM3 on the USS Frontier from 1964 to 1967. He also passed in 2016. He never talked much about his service though. I only remember one story he told where US soldiers were issued bullet proof vests for the first time, and they chose to try them out by shooting each other with M16s. The result wasn't pretty.

Fascinating. I wonder what the psychology is there. I saw a Plymouth Superbird a couple years ago that had “original damage”. It looked like it had been stolen and taken on a joyride. No straight body panels, scratches everywhere. The story went that some kid got drafted and figured he was never coming home so he spent his life savings on the fastest car he could and tried to have as much fun as possible. I assume it…

pro-Russian rebels of the Donbass war trying out bulletproof vest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ysQqHKYV1o

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#246

Post by wahern »

refenestrator wrote: post #209
wahern wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to defend American policies in Vietnam. But Vietnam became independent in 1954, albeit split between North and South. The Vietnam War as typically understood by Americans, and as encompassing most well known atrocities, wouldn't begin for another 10 years . Also, American and, more generally, anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist discourses tend to infantilize people in these countries. I doubt the Vie…

Maybe trying to exploit and maximize ethnic differences in other countries is fundamentally a bad idea in the medium/long term.

Absolutely, except in this case the U.S. wasn't even capable of that. They missed the importance of the ethnic dynamics, apparently too focused on political and economic dynamics that were at best comorbidities and at worst reflections and mirages.

From the random CIA dispatch reports from Laos and Indonesia I've read, low-level American officials were capable of regional socio-political savvy. I just don't think that appreciation ever translated up the chain. So, for example, people have claimed that the U.S. incited genocide in Indonesia. That seems both true and false. True because low-level CIA officers certainly seemed to understand how political and ethnic divisions overlapped and therefore how their anti-communist campaigning could and did devolve to ethnic cleansing. But I don't think leaders in Washington appreciated that at all. Perhaps mostly out of a racist disinclination to consider such aspects, but oblivious nonetheless.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#247

Post by bavent »

lightgreen wrote: post #172
bavent wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow I just knew if I looked back in your comment history, I would find some racism, and an impressive amount of dead/flagged comments. Take the hint dude, a lot of people think you're wrong, a lot. This doesn't mean you're being persecuted, by the way. It can just mean you're wrong. It's ok. I'm wrong a lot too. Maybe reflect on your opinions a bit and reconsider a few of them?

> Take the hint dude, a lot of people think you're wrong, a lot. The orange website is quite left-leaning, and there's nothing racist in my comments. Your opinion is understandable, but it doesn't mean I'm "wrong". And no, I'm not going to bend to groupthink. Freedom of speech and freedom of conscience is a greatest achievement of western civilization, and I'm going to use it despite of increasing number of attempts…

I wouldn't characterize HN as left-leaning. Maybe liberal with a dash of libertarian techbro thrown in.

Also to quote you: "I would hope CEO to protect someone saying “be safe from rioters and looters in BLM marches”, but that won’t happen.

It’s easy to protect someone who is supported by the majority. " Is pretty borderline racist. Maybe not overtly so, but the fact that you equate protesting getting killed with looting and rioting rubs a little too close to it. Oh and then denying racist policies are, in fact, racist just because they don't meet the dictionary definition of it.

Also - freedom of speech being the greatest achievement of western civ? No wonder it took the Muslim civilizations to get us out of the dark ages. And left-leaning activists shutting it down? Jesus dude. Read the constitution. You clearly have no idea what freedom of speech (in America) is.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

That's it. CONGRESS. Nothing about market forces pushing tech companies to deplatform people. Nothing about "cancel culture" or whatever. I mean, I also remember the Bush years, when we had "Free Speech Zones" and nobody on the right was really concerned about it because it only affected people who were protesting the Iraq/Afghanistan debacle.

I mean, Florida (a state run by a pretty right-wing governor) just passed a law essentially denying tech companies freedom of speech. The projection from the right is absolutely ridiculous at this point.

Sometimes, you're just wrong. Whether you admit it or whether you claim you are being some superior moral authority and refusing to bend to "groupthink."

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#248

Post by jollybean »

bawolff wrote: post #143
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you're talking about the acute win/loss of the Vietnam war, then absolutely the North Vietnamese won. If the USA really wanted to win the war then they could have done it outright in 1967. But that would have been very ugly. Not an option. Did the Vietnamese people win the war? No. They've been living in poverty for 50 years and most of them still are in 2021, 50 years later.

> Did the Vietnamese people win the war? No. They've been living in poverty for 50 years and most of them still are in 2021, 50 years later. Do "the people" ever win a war? Something like 600,000 - 2 million civilians died in that war. If you're implying that people would be better off ecconomically if the other side won, that seems highly speculative with no evidence to back it up.

S. Koreans are unambiguously 'better off' than their counterparts in the North.

That's the closest comparable we have.

If the US were to have 'stayed' in S. Vietnamese, much like they did in S. Korea, that S. Vietnam would look 'somewhat' like S. Korea, but not nearly as prosperous given their agrarian history etc..

But definitely better off.

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#249

Post by acomjean »

matt-attack wrote: post #178
xwdv wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fake, and pretty soon people will not even want to entertain the idea of looking at photos or videos that are not in color.

I actually think b&w photos are too deceptive. I mean too many people literally picture the world at the time to be black and white. Recall that look is just an artificial limit imposed by immature chemical technology. It’s not like people wanted their pictures looking like that. It’s even a common trope in modern films to use black and white when showing flashbacks to time periods around the beginning of the 20th ce…

Reminds me of an old comic "Calvin and Hobbs" where Calvin's Dad explains why all old photos where black and white.

http://calvin-and-hobbes-comic-strips.blogspot.com/2011/11/c...

Re: Vietnam War images from the North Vietnamese side

#250

Post by relaxing »

dopeboy wrote: post #112
aantix wrote: post #60

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hiNanqC5aQ My dad was a hospital corpsman on the USS Repose (hospital ship) during Vietnam. Having seen some of his operating room photos, I can't imagine that we were on the "winning" side. The video above is his amateur footage he took while aboard the ship. Probably 1968/1969. I had the film digitized after he passed in 2016.

This is really cool, what an honor to see. Thank you for digitizing the footage and sharing it to the world. Couple q's if you're up for it: * What camera did he have? Was it common in that era for cameras to not have a mic? (not complaining, just curious) * Did he ever watch the footage, after the war? I know some veterans, depending on how they processed their experience, just block it all out. * Can you share more…

Most Super 8 cameras could not record sound.

In the 70s, Kodak introduced a variant of Super 8 film that had a magnetic strip for audio, but it wasn’t widely used. Later in the 70s video on magnetic tape cassettes became popular, which was the first time most people had home movies with sound.

Both technologies arrived too late for the US war in Vietnam.

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