Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings • Hacker News Board

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#241

Post by bityard » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #21

The US continues to support unpaid work in a pretty major way. I think unpaid internships being socially acceptable is one of the roots of this insidious habit. They've been illegal up here in Canada for a while and it hasn't really caused any economic disasters. It'd be a good change to advocate for down there as well. And, honestly, internships aren't free for companies unless there is literally nothing of value be…

> I think unpaid internships being socially acceptable is one of the roots of this insidious habit.

Literally _everyone_ who says this doesn't understand what an unpaid internship is, including you.

An unpaid intern is essentially an entry-level newhire who never leaves the onboarding and training phase. (Unless they are subsequently hired.) They are there to learn something about the job, the company, and the people there. Most importantly CANNOT perform work that meaningfully contributes to the company's goals.

Because this is HN, here's an example of how it would look in a software company. Let's say Timmy is in college and wants to see what a real dev shop looks like, so he applies for (and is accepted) for an unpaid internship at FoobarDev. Here are some of the things Timmy could be asked to do:

* Learn the programming language(s) in use at the company * Set up a personal development environment according to the company's tech stack. * Implement a toy feature that will never ship with the product. * Fix a minor tooling or build bug that might be an annoyance but never seriously impacted developers or the product. * Chat with developers, managers, and others in the company about their background and experience.

Here are some things that Timmy could NOT be asked to do:

* Implement a new product feature. * Tackle a bug from the backlog. * Clean the office * File paperwork * Make a coffee-run for the full-time hires

Companies who abuse unpaid internships are _violating_ their agreements with education institutions and are probably breaking labor law. The idea with an unpaid internship is that the intern gets a peek inside the Real World at no risk. Don't underestimate the value of this... Getting ones bearings in a field puts you well ahead of your peers and the networking is absolutely invaluable. (Linked-In is not even close to a substitute for actually meeting people.)

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#242

Post by jedberg » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

SirSourdough wrote: post #199

jedberg wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't really subcontractors of Netflix. They're a separate company selling a product to Netflix (a complete TV show). If Netflix buys a laptop from Apple and Apple does something wrong, you don't blame Netflix for it, you blame Apple.

I don’t think this is cut and dry, and instead depends on the nature of the relationship. To buy a laptop, Netflix didn’t have board meetings, deep contract negotiations involving the executives of both businesses, or an ongoing relationship. The laptop is effectively a commodity, and any injustice Apple commits is amortized over many million laptop owners who tacitly but minorly endorsed that injustice. Netflix buyi…

Netflix isn't the only buyer though. They make the show and sell it to whichever studio compensates them the best. And then sometimes sell it to a different studio in a different country.

Show purchases don't go past the board. They don't even always go past the CEO.

It's really more akin to buying enterprise software. So sure, change the metaphor to Oracle database. You don't complain about Oracle's customers where Oracle does something bad.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#243

Post by EricE » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

gist wrote: post #25

I don't get why everyone thinks this is so bad. It's great and free publicity for the photographers. They are trading their time for something that will bring them future business and will get them attention to get paid jobs. While I don't do photography anymore I'd take this in a heartbeat. Clear win for the photographers. Note that TV has a history (game shows) of trading free products in exchange for media mention…

Yes - I love how the dominant assumption is that exposure has zero or very low value for everyone to the point that this is a ludicrous practice at face value.

A whole lot of privilege in those fundamental assumptions :p

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#244

Post by jedberg » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

anotherman554 wrote: post #204

jedberg wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't really subcontractors of Netflix. They're a separate company selling a product to Netflix (a complete TV show). If Netflix buys a laptop from Apple and Apple does something wrong, you don't blame Netflix for it, you blame Apple.

That's a bad metaphor, though, it's more like if Netflix hired Apple to make a special type of Laptop that only Netflix will sell, and the laptop will be marketed as "The Netflix Laptop".

You're right it's a bad metaphor. It's more like enterprise software. So change "laptop" to Salesforce or Oracle.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#245

Post by coderintherye » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

mitchdoogle wrote: post #182

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No HR person would allow unpaid intern positions in 2021. It's very clearly illegal in the United States. When I mentor college students, the only times we hear about unpaid internships are: 1) Unfunded wannabe startups or small family businesses who don't understand what they need, but they assume they can convince some naive kid to do it for free. No one with actual skills or prospects takes these jobs. Job boards…

Has this changed recently? When I was in school, seemed like most internship opportunities I found were unpaid. There was some deal where it would count as college credit. Now don't try to tell me college credit counts as being paid

Yes, things changed in 2010, this is the best summary I could find of it: https://www.commlawcenter.com/2018/01/confused-paying-intern...

That said, the interpretation changed some in 2015 and again n 2018. Here is the Department of Labor's "test" on whether or not you can provide unpaid internships: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-interns...

That's federal, but some states have stricter laws.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#246

Post by Aunche » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #176

jf22 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The promotional aspects could be worth much more than whatever money they'd earn.

This is one of those things often asserted but rarely proven.

Brands often pay hundreds of thousands on product placement. I'm not sure that's going to help a photographer though. Coke product placement may motivate me to buy a coke, but it's not like I'm going to hire a wedding photographer 1000 miles away.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#247

Post by EricE » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #21

The US continues to support unpaid work in a pretty major way. I think unpaid internships being socially acceptable is one of the roots of this insidious habit. They've been illegal up here in Canada for a while and it hasn't really caused any economic disasters. It'd be a good change to advocate for down there as well. And, honestly, internships aren't free for companies unless there is literally nothing of value be…

So exposure has zero value to everyone? Across the board?

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#248

Post by Dylan16807 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #214

Dylan16807 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When dozens of celebrities offer to work for free, they won't pick a nobody. So what are you trying to prove? Do you honestly think it wouldn't skyrocket a new performer's career?

I think it sounds like an example that doesn't prove what you aim to convince me of.

The goal was to disprove "this sets the standard that work is worth $0". And celebrities using it in the middle of successful performance careers seems to disprove that idea just fine.

You're the one that brought up breakouts, but the part you're demanding proof of is something that's obvious. No, I don't have proof that a nobody performing in the super bowl would have a huge spike in popularity. But I think you're being ridiculous if you think that wouldn't happen. If you want to find a flaw in an argument, demand proof of something that isn't obvious.

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#249

Post by agarv » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

happytoexplain wrote: post #22

shoto_io wrote: post #5

I might get downvoted for that, I still gonna say it: That might be due to the demand-supply situation in photography. They probably will find photographers doing this for the promotion effect described in the email.

This is less about "can" and more about "should". It's bad for everybody when professionals work "for publicity" or are encouraged to do so, despite the relative innocence of the professional who chooses to do so. For the least subtle take on this possible, see: https://youtu.be/mj5IV23g-fE

If you are a professional, it means you have a business. Large companies can give away things for free, and this is called marketing, and no one has a problem with this. If small or one person businesses want to give away labor for free, also for marketing purposes, why is this unethical?

Re: Netflix's “Love Is Blind” Wants Unpaid Photographer for Five Weddings

#250

Post by munk-a » Wed, May 05, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #155

duxup wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think unpaid internships being socially acceptable is one of the roots of this insidious habit. When I worked with interns they were all paid... but every one was more time and expense to work with than any value they provided. In weeks they accomplished what I could do in an afternoon, and we spent WAY more than an afternoon of work with them. Amazingly many seemed to have a very high opinion of their productivit…

No HR person would allow unpaid intern positions in 2021. It's very clearly illegal in the United States. When I mentor college students, the only times we hear about unpaid internships are: 1) Unfunded wannabe startups or small family businesses who don't understand what they need, but they assume they can convince some naive kid to do it for free. No one with actual skills or prospects takes these jobs. Job boards…

Unpaid internships are quite legal in the US as long as the intern is receiving benefits from the arrangement[1] - this means that an unpaid intern running to fetch you coffee and pick up your dry cleaning is almost certainly illegal in the US. Additionally, unpaid internships are extremely rare in technology right now due to the intense market demands - if you dangle an unpaid internship out in the market you're not going to get very many bites as everyone will either go for prestige focused internships[2] or just an equivalent internship that actually comes with a salary.

In non-tech fields this sort of thing is much more common and, at least when I went through school in the States, the fact that you might have to work an unpaid internship was a reality we all accepted (the cultural perception may have moved on). It's not illegal but it's possible very few HR person would allow such a posting - internships aren't profitable for companies, so most of the unpaid internships were teensy companies that hadn't realized that their interns would actually cost the company money regardless of the salary.

1. Here's the DOL's Fact Sheet including the seven evaluation metrics: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-interns...

2. Which is it's own problem - working an internship at Google is basically having Game of Thrones on your IMDB page and the FAANG companies do exploit this perceived prestige.