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Effective altruism is not effective

philosophersbeard.org

241–248 of 248 posts

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#241
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with EA is that they seem to assume that they aren't doing politics. Except they are, and of the non-democratic kind. Now maybe they are right and current mainstream politics are so fucked up that secession is the best idea, but I would be very careful about thinking that you have politics all figured out! Also, the "Prime Directive" style non-intervention policies are common in science fiction for a reas…

Could you explain how they are doing politics and why that's non-democraticthis for someone who is not familiar with this? Thanks!

Let's go back to Politics 101 - Etymology : The English language bundles several concepts under the term "politics". Let's go back to the Ancient Greeks, to whom we owe many of our concepts, they had 3 different words for it : 1.) Politikos = community life 2.) Politeia = organization & management of the society, its Constitution, its government 3.) Politika = the power struggle

In modern terms, every time that you do something that has an impact on the world outside of your nuclear family, you're doing politics. (Note that this is a somewhat artificial separation, because, for instance, the way that you raise your children is going to eventually have a pretty big impact on the rest of the society !)

Now there are several ways to organize a society (= "polis") - these days we tend to consider that democracy (= political power equally spread among all* citizens) is the "worst of all, excluding all others".

EA clearly doesn't trust democracy to do its job (otherwise they would tell you to donate to the government instead), and considers that some people know better than others, and should wield this power instead (in this case the power is coming from donations and the people wielding the power are the donors and the people deciding where to apply it). This kind of social organization is plutocracy and/or aristocracy = "the rule of the wealthiest and/or the best".

This goes farther than just money though - the more you spend your time & thought on a separate political structure, the less time & thought you do on normal society politics. One of the effects is that it's going to reinforce your feeling that the normal political structure lacks legitimacy, resulting in a vicious circle of separatism.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#242
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simpler answer is that these people aren't actually leftists.

I'm not sure whom you are referring to when you say "these people". Intersectionality (which btw refers to almost the exact opposite of what most people think of as "identity politics") is absolutely compatible with (and arguably necessary[0] for) leftism. Class reductionists OTOH certainly think of themselves as leftists and can be instrumental to leftist politics. They however run the risk of also being useful to o…

I'm using the definitions of left vs right as being how much power should the lower classes get ("opposing monarchy" kind of already fits, though AFAIK after the revolution farmers quickly lost most of their power to the profit of citizens).

It has been pointed out decades ago that capitalism would try to subvert some of the left by evacuating the class issues to the profit of ethnic issues and then pitting ethnic groups against each other. In fact you could say that this dates at least back to Marx' "On the Irish question."

IMHO this is what is happening currently - it's really sad to see supposedly left parties to ally themselves with people pushing ethnicist and sexist ideologies (but where white or man = "worse" instead of the previously common ethnicist and sexist ideologies where it was "better" - that "all lives matter" ended up being considered an ethnicist slogan is probably making Martin Luther King roll in its grave !)

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#243
post #234
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really, though? Yes, it is. If you're an unhoused diabetic living in the US without access to insulin, it literally doesn't matter if the country is run by Ivy League graduates or uncultured generalissimos. Note that I said "many", not "most". I'm not even making a claim about proportions but in the US alone there is a large quantity of people for whom the status quo is either a death sentence or at least ent…

Well, I'm pretty sure EA isn't really opposed to moderate change or stuff like organizing for, I don't know, people who need insulin or anything like that. The people who usually oppose EA are those who think that there is no solution to societal ills except fully restructuring society into something completely different, and who usually will oppose any kind of charity-based solution on grounds that it might make peo…

Okay, this got a bit longer than I intended so I split it up into different points:

1) But society has already been fully restructured into something completely different. It's foolish to believe that we can get from one local optimum to a higher point without interruption if the only reason we're at the local optimum is that the previous one was violently interrupted in the first place. It's also foolish to believe that history is a linear trajectory towards something good or better, though this is indeed what most schools tend to teach because it avoids the difficult questions.

2) The status quo is unstable and will inevitably lead to accelerationism. You can not overthrow injustice without violence as those benefiting from the injustice have no interest in giving up those benefits without violence. Maintaining the status quo if it is unjust is in itself a violent act. The status quo isn't stable, most of us are just sufficiently detached from its injustices that it feels stable and safe to us.

3) That political action is violent doesn't mean it has to manifest as a revolution or civil war. We like to glamorize the suffragette movement as a non-violent political struggle that mostly consisted of women holding up signs but suffragettes were literally performing actions we would today label as terrorism. We like to appeal to MLK as the voice of reason and imagine that he ended racism by talking in a kind voice but his protests were literally portrayed as riots at the time no differently from how we portrayed the 2020 BLM protests today. The US itself was created in a violent revolution and had to fight a war against its own people to prevent a secession only a century later. Not every instance of social progress requires a complete overthrow of the entire system but the more intrinsic an injustice is to a system, the more violent will those benefitting from it defend it against anyone trying to change it and the more violence will be necessary to overcome this resistance.

4) Revolutions and civil wars are often not caused by a desire for things to better but as a reaction to governments actively making things worse. Cambodia is actually a great example in that the sharp turn to the ultra-right was a direct response to incremental progressivism that preceded it and this in turn necessitated a violent revolution because there was no way to recover from this shift without it. Incrementalism had not only failed but was violently halted and reversed by those benefitting from the existing power structures. By trying to undo the incremental changes they drove progressives into the arms of the Khmer Rouge who had positioned themselves as the opposition and were now seen as justified in overthrowing the system as a whole.

5) The question isn't whether we should oppose charity, the question is whether charity can solve problems created by the power structure that enables a tiny minority to engage in charity in the first place. And the answer is clearly no because it hasn't and there's no reason to believe it will. Charity is a form of wealth redistribution but it is extremely inefficient in more ways than just the obvious bureaucracy involved in maintaining charity organizations to develop and implement social works projects to actually help people in defined and limited ways. That's just food stamps with extra steps. The problem is that charity is itself replicating the top-down hierarchical dynamic by forcing "interest groups" to compete for scraps: whether the money goes to breast cancer research, education for people living in poor areas, treatment of AIDS patients, or exterminating the mosquitos that spread Malaria is entirely up to the market, i.e. the few extremely wealthy shopping for a philanthropic cause to support while saving taxes, indirectly transferring money to business partners, or legally bribing officials.

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I don't oppose harm reduction in itself. Voting for the less bad political party is probably better than allowing the more bad political party to win. Billionaires funding technological innovation is probably better than billionaires spending the same money on union busting or propping up totalitarian governments. But the question isn't whether we want the revolution or not, the question is when the revolution will come and who will win. And how we prepare for that.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#244
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. So it's possible to focus on getting rich and then never give back. There's a solution to that, which is continuing to give a percentage of your income. Some people are quite charitable and give 10%. I'm a little more selfish and give 1.5%, but this is already currently helping people. Is it really pie in the sky idealism if (statistically) I've saved around 6 lives to far, (and helped many more). Still early i…

Imagine you could make people give 30 % of their income... almost like a tax... but that would be political, not effective.

In lots of western countries the total tax rate of work (tax wedge) is much more than 30 %.

According to [1] OECD average is 36 %. In my EU country it is 46 %.

[1] https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pd...

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#245
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure whom you are referring to when you say "these people". Intersectionality (which btw refers to almost the exact opposite of what most people think of as "identity politics") is absolutely compatible with (and arguably necessary[0] for) leftism. Class reductionists OTOH certainly think of themselves as leftists and can be instrumental to leftist politics. They however run the risk of also being useful to o…

I'm using the definitions of left vs right as being how much power should the lower classes get ("opposing monarchy" kind of already fits, though AFAIK after the revolution farmers quickly lost most of their power to the profit of citizens). It has been pointed out decades ago that capitalism would try to subvert some of the left by evacuating the class issues to the profit of ethnic issues and then pitting ethnic gr…

That's why I said intersectionality is distinct from identity politics. IDPOL is actually the norm in most modern politics (e.g. NIMBY).

As for Marx, Engels and the Irish: their position wasn't that Ireland was only divided along class lines which merely "happened to" mostly follow the British-Irish divide, at least not as they learned more about Ireland and British colonialism in Ireland. Instead they argued that Ireland should be granted independence and then join a socialist Wales, England and Scotland as a socialist federation. This is literally an intersectional understanding of the problem: Britishness and Irishness played a part, but so did the class divide.

BTW, you're mixing jargon by referring to Marx while also talking about "the lower classes". Marx only knows two classes: the working class (who have to perform wage labor to survive) and the owning class (who rent out their private property or pay workers to use it to produce goods for surplus value). The distinction of "citizens" and farmers is as meaningless in a Marxist context as you claim other distinctions to be.

You're right that capitalists will try to pit groups against each other and this is what IDPOL is. But there is a significant difference between liberal IDPOL and leftist intersectionality. Division is not created by pointing out the existence of differences but rather the creation of power imbalances along those dividing lines. It's naïve to think that racism will automatically go away if we can overcome capitalism even if capitalism is actively reinforcing racism to divide the working class.

To pick up on your example of All Lives Matter: the claim of BLM isn't that Black Lives Matter And Others Don't. Their claim is that Black Lives Matter But Others Treat Them Like They Don't. The slogan "All Lives Matter" was intentionally pushed by white supremacists as a counter to remove the focus on "Black Lives" specifically. The point wasn't to say other lives don't matter, in general, but that right then, right there, this is putting "Black Lives" front and center for once because nobody is paying attention to their suffering. "Blue Lives Matter" went even further: since one of the core complaints of BLM was police killings of Black people, the substitute of "Blue" for "Black" was a direct inversion shifting the support from the oppressed to the oppressor. MLK most certainly wouldn't be rolling in his grave.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#246
post #243
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm pretty sure EA isn't really opposed to moderate change or stuff like organizing for, I don't know, people who need insulin or anything like that. The people who usually oppose EA are those who think that there is no solution to societal ills except fully restructuring society into something completely different, and who usually will oppose any kind of charity-based solution on grounds that it might make peo…

Okay, this got a bit longer than I intended so I split it up into different points: 1) But society has already been fully restructured into something completely different. It's foolish to believe that we can get from one local optimum to a higher point without interruption if the only reason we're at the local optimum is that the previous one was violently interrupted in the first place. It's also foolish to believe…

My response to this is straight from your own post: "It's also foolish to believe that history is a linear trajectory towards something good or better". You seem to state that we need violent revolution to get from one local optimum to a "better" one, but violent revolution can also lead us to worse ones.

It's foolish to believe that we actually know a surefire to fix injustice, or to build a system which will not contain "flaws" in its power structure. It's even more foolish to believe we can build a system with no power structure, like certain movements do.

On the topic of injustice: While I agree that you can't overthrow injustice without some form of violence, my issue here is that people often create more and bigger injustice when trying to fix injustice, because the bad in the status quo blinds them to the good. People often take things for granted which are not obvious and only realize they had them when they lose them.

Also, justice is subjective. There are visions of justice where you can create a "more just" world where everyone is worse off. What then?

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Addendum: I'd just like to say that I appreciate that you clearly put effort into your arguments, and actually talked things out with me even though we clearly hold different view points. I probably won't reply to this thread anymore, as I think I've said all I have to contribute to this topic for now. I will read if you reply, though.

Thank you for debating this complex issue openly with me.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#247
post #246
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, this got a bit longer than I intended so I split it up into different points: 1) But society has already been fully restructured into something completely different. It's foolish to believe that we can get from one local optimum to a higher point without interruption if the only reason we're at the local optimum is that the previous one was violently interrupted in the first place. It's also foolish to believe…

My response to this is straight from your own post: "It's also foolish to believe that history is a linear trajectory towards something good or better". You seem to state that we need violent revolution to get from one local optimum to a "better" one, but violent revolution can also lead us to worse ones. It's foolish to believe that we actually know a surefire to fix injustice, or to build a system which will not co…

FWIW

> It's foolish to believe that we actually know a surefire to fix injustice

That's why I'm not an accelerationist. I think (specifically in the US and most Western countries) incrementalism is preferable and building dual power is a more fruitful path than attempting a revolution. But when incrementalism fails, direct action can become necessary. Incrementalism wouldn't have achieved universal suffrage, wouldn't have abolished racial segregation, wouldn't have decriminalized homosexuality and will not end capitalism.

Incrementalism rarely manages to topple hierarchies, it mostly just shifts them or tips them in one direction or the other.

I'm an anarchist but I don't fully believe a purely anarchic society is possible at a global scale today. I think mutualism or democratic confederalism is a more pragmatic goal but that's certainly not something we can jump into just by overcoming one power structure alone.

But as the saying goes, "it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism" (or unjust hierarchies in general, for that matter).

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Re: Effective altruism is not effective

#248
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using the definitions of left vs right as being how much power should the lower classes get ("opposing monarchy" kind of already fits, though AFAIK after the revolution farmers quickly lost most of their power to the profit of citizens). It has been pointed out decades ago that capitalism would try to subvert some of the left by evacuating the class issues to the profit of ethnic issues and then pitting ethnic gr…

That's why I said intersectionality is distinct from identity politics. IDPOL is actually the norm in most modern politics (e.g. NIMBY). As for Marx, Engels and the Irish: their position wasn't that Ireland was only divided along class lines which merely "happened to" mostly follow the British-Irish divide, at least not as they learned more about Ireland and British colonialism in Ireland. Instead they argued that Ir…

Right, thanks, I'll have to look more into the difference between intersectionality and identity politics.

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"Racism" seems now to me to be a very bad term (in a way, it's racist itself) - we have many examples of similar kind of strife wrongly called racist, while it should probably called "ethnicist" (?) instead :

- (Protestant ?) White North Americans vs (Catholic ?) White Central & South Americans.

- Muslim Semites vs Jewish Semites.

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My main point is that BLM shot themselves in the foot by using this slogan - something like "Black Lives Matter too !" wouldn't have allowed their opponents to claim this kind of Orwellian inversion of terms.

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