Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 344 posts

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#241

Post by addy34 »

de_keyboard wrote: post #136
eloff wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's exactly it. There is a tradeoff to be made here with likely deaths on both sides, and the government is choosing much higher numbers of deaths because it looks better for them politically. That's immoral and cowardly. I don't see any way to justify the decision they've made logically.

I think there were broadly 3 strategies: 1. Do very little intervention, but perhaps isolate the vulnerable. This was the "Sweden strategy". 2. Do big interventions if cases rise, but only so far as is required to prevent hospitals being over-whelmed. This was the strategy in most of Europe, and in particular the UK. 3. Do big interventions with the intention of reaching "covid zero", including restrictions on intern…

>I wish I was living under (3). Sure it's painful in the short term, but compared to rolling lock-downs for over 12 months?

Having spent the last year under (3), I dream of 1 or 2.

That said, it very much dependent on the country. I live somewhere that is 20 x 20 miles in size (Hong Kong). The strictness of the border control (3 weeks in a hotel room if you leave and come back) make leaving pretty much impossible.

That, combined with extremely conservative local restrictions (not to mention the political situation) takes a significant toll after a while.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#242

Post by ceejayoz »

imwillofficial wrote: post #240
ceejayoz wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more suicide Except the actual statistics linked upthread say otherwise thus far.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/10/911117577/the-pandemic-has-re...

"And experts worry those studies will show a spike in suicide..."

The results weren't in, yet, when that article was written. The Lancet article is from April 2021; yours is from September 2020.

Experts are sometimes surprised by results; it's also possible the whole-population numbers have some subsets that go up and other subsets that go down.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#243

Post by Izkata »

lukasLansky wrote: post #118
zpeti wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This pandemic is basically this entire story. COVID deaths are much more visible than the missed cancers, the depression and drug abuse caused by lockdowns, so basically it’s an easy choice for governments, lockdowns are better politically.

That is a narrative that misses the point of the thread and is generally not compatible with hard data. For example, the amount of suicides in US during 2020 went down .

CDC only tracks actual suicides, not attempts. Attempts and suicidal thoughts are up: https://www.aappublications.org/news/2020/12/16/pediatricssu...

Also, on the CDC stats, deaths by "unintentional injuries" is up by way more than suicides are down.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#244

Post by unanswered »

It's funny how "listen to the science" goes right out the fucking window the second the actual scientists say something people don't want to hear. Then it's all "akshually public health officials are just politicians" and "akshually public health officials are bad scientists" and "akshually I know better than the scientists with my PhD in Internets".

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#245

Post by hyko »

akie wrote: post #203
ghaff wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on earth would the US export when it's supply-constrained itself? Of course, the US can and will export once it has sufficient supply. But countries exist in large part to look after the self-interest of their own population. It would rightly be a complete political non-starter for the US to start shipping vaccines elsewhere while it still needed more doses domestically.

Don't you think Europe is supply-constrained? What about India/Russia/China? If these countries didn't export, Israel wouldn't have any vaccine, Australia wouldn't have any vaccine, Canada wouldn't have any vaccine, New Zealand wouldn't have any vaccine. And let's not even talk about the rest of the world. But yeah, it's inconvenient. I get it. Greed is good! Let them starve.

Wouldn’t the greedy thing be to export all the vaccines you produce for maximum profit?

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#246

Post by graeme »

da_chicken wrote: post #158
graeme wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there aren’t enough Moderna and Pfizer, and every day we don’t vaccinate, more people get sick and die, people can’t see their friends and family or live normally, and parts of the economy remain shut down. The cost is really severe! Especially globally, many countries have hardly been able to vaccinate at all.

You also don't know how severe the blood clotting problem is. It may escalate over extended time. We also don't know the mechanism by which it's causing blood clotting. That's the problem. People are looking at this like it's just one case in millions or just 6 deaths in 6.8 million doses for J&J. You don't know that because we don't know what is going on. We just know the symptom; we don't know the "disease". It may…

This sounds compelling but Covid also seems to produce long run risks in about 10% of those who get it, not to mention the deaths. You’re only looking at one side of the ledger but could make all the same points with more frequency on the other side.

Given that Astrazenca has the same issue, and given that both vaccines use Adenoviruses (known to cause clotting issues) then it is a reasonable bet the J and J issues are like AZ. Those are similar to Heparin induced clotting and Germany’s Erlich institute has given guidelines for treatment.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#247

Post by hyko »

akie wrote: post #115
hyko wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well...not really. The UK manufacturing capacity is tiny from a global perspective. The EU tried to scapegoat the UK for their failure to run an efficient procurement, but that was just irrational politicking. The U.S. obviously has more manufacturing capacity, but like the UK it basically has no chance of dealing with the pandemic without mass vaccination, so exports are a political non starter. What was really requ…

> so exports are a political non-starter ...in the US and the UK. In the end it's also a reflection of what is important to a nation. Should the strong help the weak? Is it every man for themselves? Thank you for making my point. I think pointing to "international organizations" to do something, when you could have done something yourself, is a weak argument.

The strong should protect the weak; they still have to put their own oxygen mask on first though.

Protecting your citizens is the first duty of government. There is a political failure here, but the domestic mass vaccination programs aren’t part of it.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#249

Post by henrikeh »

nickpp wrote: post #239

This is why you can't trust politicians and governments: they make decisions to cover their asses while robbing you the ability to decide what and how much risk you want to take.

Except the recommendation is made outside of the government and parliament. And some parties are even arguing for giving people a choice.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#250

Post by CountDrewku »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #134
Tenoke wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professionals make wrong decisions all the time, often because the wrong professionals are the ones making them. Are people already forgetting how masks were actively disrecommended by 'professionals' at the start of the pandemic while plenty here and in other places were similarly saying that masks are obviously good?

You must have listened to the wrong "experts" then. There was a bit of an initial, politically influenced confusion in the US at the beginning up until about June. However, where I live all experts recommended wearing masks from the start. They did say that people should not rush to buy FFP2 masks and chirurgical masks at a time when there was a shortage of those for health professionals, which was definitely the rig…

"You must have listened to the wrong "experts" then."

Dr. Fauci is a wrong expert? I love how when the narrative doesn't fit then suddenly the expert becomes the 'wrong-expert' even though the entire time everyone gets beat over the head with lIsteN to scIeNce & eXperts.

You're just subjectively choosing which people you agree with like anyone else but telling yourself they're the correct experts so you know the supposedly undeniable truth.

Post reply on HN