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Perfect Motherfucking Website

perfectmotherfuckingwebsite.com

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Re: Perfect Motherfucking Website

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and against people who push their preferences on me. > The sensible default is to follow user preferences. > W3C best practice is to let user agent render text as appropriate. But nothing about including CSS goes against this. CSS is clientside rendering, it has nothing to do with forcing preferences on anyone. Your browser has the ability to override provided styles and either modify or ignore CSS. If it doesn't t…

Maybe it's defeatable, but it's still fighting against user preferences. Not sure how you can make that sound palatable. The analogy is if the text documents dictated the editor settings, what font, size, color scheme and keybindings to use because emacs defaults are not to the document author's preferences. >There's no downside to having optional defaults that users can partially override or fully ignore at their ow…

> Maybe it's defeatable, but it's still fighting against user preferences.

It's not "defeatable", you're not fighting anybody. You can turn off CSS in Firefox in 2 clicks: View -> Page Style -> No Style. What's happening here is that you're being served a text document, and optionally, if you want to, you can download a separate list of styles that will make it look pretty.

This is like buying a bag of cheese at the grocery mart and getting mad that the a recipe on the side of the package is trying to force you to cook a certain way. Nobody is trying to force you to do anything, we'd just like to have the option of having sensible defaults that look nice without being forced to write custom CSS clientside for every website we visit.

And if it's really that awful of a problem for you, then file a pull request with your user agent to get rid of CSS. It's not the website's fault that your user agent is requesting random files from the Internet without your permission. It's not the server's job to tell your user agent how to display HTML and whether or not to use CSS. Your agent doesn't have to do any extra work here, it just needs to stop going out of its way to request extra files on every website it visits. How is it the server's problem if your user agent can't do that?

You're making this out like CSS has to be "circumvented" or something, but it is easier to build a user agent that ignores CSS than one that consumes it. It's less work, not more.

> The analogy is if the text documents dictated the editor settings

They basically do in Emacs: most specialized buffer-types like Magit and Org ship with their own modes that they expect you to use that have their own keybindings and settings. And Org literally does what you're describing. It allows you to override variables locally per-buffer[0]; everything from column widths to TODO colors to indentation to list styles can be specified using CSS-style declarations at the start of a file.

This is also really common in the terminal world for things like manpages; many manpages will use terminal escape codes to color/bold text, and most hard-code their own indentation using whitespace. And even in regular documents, rich text files and PDFs allow you to specify color information and fonts.

The main difference in all of these examples is that most of them are less user-controllable than CSS is. I can't override how a PDF displays; I can't easily change the indentation in a manpage. Globally disabling buffer settings in Org-mode can be problematic because styling information is mixed with functional information like archive locations. In contrast, I can easily disable and override CSS, and it won't affect the actual content of the page at all.

> That's what GNU docs do, they use defaults

No, not by your standards. The GNU docs do ship CSS. The docs ship with multiple style resets, they set the font size in code blocks, they override list styles, they set fonts as well. So GNU docs are willing to override user preferences for code blocks, just not to make the page work well on widescreen displays.

[0]: https://orgmode.org/manual/In_002dbuffer-Settings.html

Re: Perfect Motherfucking Website

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to little contrast causes so much more eyestrain, and can't be fixed by changing your screens brightness.

Too much contrast can't be fixed by changing your brightness either unless you like spending several hours calibrating it again after every single blogpost you read.

I have said it pretty often in this comment section, but the huge majority of internet users has no finely calibrated screens at all.

They also won't have screen where they are likely to feel anything has too much contrast.

IMHO a screen which displays a common black and white website with so much contrast that it strains the eye is a 100% failed product which completely ignores reality.

Re: Perfect Motherfucking Website

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much contrast can't be fixed by changing your brightness either unless you like spending several hours calibrating it again after every single blogpost you read.

I have said it pretty often in this comment section, but the huge majority of internet users has no finely calibrated screens at all. They also won't have screen where they are likely to feel anything has too much contrast. IMHO a screen which displays a common black and white website with so much contrast that it strains the eye is a 100% failed product which completely ignores reality.

> IMHO a screen which displays a common black and white website with so much contrast that it strains the eye is a 100% failed product which completely ignores reality.

A website which has so much contrast that it strains the eye on any spec-compliant monitor or a cheap 1990s CRT is a failed product. Reducing the quality of monitors to compensate for shitty websites can't be the solution.

Re: Perfect Motherfucking Website

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone's attempt at a joke and the open discussion of web design gets you that upset, you might benefit from an extended break from the internet. Unless you get angry at clouds.

Upset? This is a very accurate and sober analysis.

“I want to hecking scream,” the italicized emphasis and explanatory interjections seem to indicate otherwise.

Re: Perfect Motherfucking Website

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have said it pretty often in this comment section, but the huge majority of internet users has no finely calibrated screens at all. They also won't have screen where they are likely to feel anything has too much contrast. IMHO a screen which displays a common black and white website with so much contrast that it strains the eye is a 100% failed product which completely ignores reality.

> IMHO a screen which displays a common black and white website with so much contrast that it strains the eye is a 100% failed product which completely ignores reality. A website which has so much contrast that it strains the eye on any spec-compliant monitor or a cheap 1990s CRT is a failed product. Reducing the quality of monitors to compensate for shitty websites can't be the solution.

Black and white web pages had been pretty much the standard since well the invention of the internet...

Same for black and white text documents.

Or black and white shell promts.

And so on.

So it's pretty obviously for me what is detached from reality and what isn't.

EDIT: It's the color space which is broken I guess, white (on a website) should be neutral background white not eye hurting brightness and the color space should have some "whiter then (normal,neutral) white" colors. I.e. the normal white color should not have defaulted to maximal brightness.

Re: Perfect Motherfucking Website

#246

I want to hecking scream. The point of the original website in this chain was not that you couldn't do media queries, or that all of your designs had to be unstyled. It was a gosh-darned satire that showed that even if you did literally nothing , your website would still be responsive and readable and load fast. The fact that it did nothing, that it was just a completely unstyled HTML page was the reason that the jok…

Same. Websites are fast, accessible, readable, and decent looking by default. We'd be better off if (like operating systems) more of the presentation preferences were left to the user. I used to use an extension for Firefox that allowed me to disable all styles for a website by hotkey. 9/10 websites were more readable after turning off all styles.

Re: Perfect Motherfucking Website

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO a screen which displays a common black and white website with so much contrast that it strains the eye is a 100% failed product which completely ignores reality. A website which has so much contrast that it strains the eye on any spec-compliant monitor or a cheap 1990s CRT is a failed product. Reducing the quality of monitors to compensate for shitty websites can't be the solution.

Black and white web pages had been pretty much the standard since well the invention of the internet... Same for black and white text documents. Or black and white shell promts. And so on. So it's pretty obviously for me what is detached from reality and what isn't. EDIT: It's the color space which is broken I guess, white (on a website) should be neutral background white not eye hurting brightness and the color spac…

> EDIT: It's the color space which is broken I guess, white (on a website) should be neutral background white not eye hurting brightness and the color space should have some "whiter then (normal,neutral) white" colors. I.e. the normal white color should not have defaulted to maximal brightness.

Sure, but that's already the standard.

The people who obsess over using #fff as default white just happen to be the ones whose monitors show #fff the way #ccc was supposed to be shown (and used to be shown, on CRTs)

Re: Perfect Motherfucking Website

#249
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point yeah. I also think it should be easier to tell browsers to make text high contrast, design be damned. Fundamentally it's an accessibility issue.

Last time I was in this situation, the UX expert and I had the entire dev team stand at the back of a conference room and vote on which font was most legible. All but one agreed Verdana was the easiest. Not only that, but it was still more legible than our previous font at 1pt smaller text, which meant we could get more info onto the screen. Not tons more, but we were having to truncate text in some spots, and someti…

Ooof that burns. Feels weird to have a UX expert but then ignore them? But of course, corporate knows best haha.
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