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Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

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Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#241
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, plopping JavaScript on top of blockchain is not something I would call visionary. Smart contracts were there long before eth. Ethereum is a huge pre-mine scam with lots of promises and very little delivery. It’s got nice PR, but it’s really the PHP of cryptocurrencies. But of course almost everything else except bitcoin is much worse. Turing completeness is literally a bug in such system. It’s an anti-feature.…

JavaScript powers much of the Internet today, and PHP too. When evaluating the effect of any given system or protocol - do you only analyze the design of its language - or its outcome?

Cool, I just don’t want it to power any of my financial future.

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#242

Satoshi said "The nature of Bitcoin is such that once version 0.1 was released, the core design was set in stone for the rest of its lifetime."[1] Vitalik going from POW to POS is nonsense for any crypto electronic cash currency because people can not trust it if core design changes from time to time. Vitalik will probably come back again to POW after miners calm down. [1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.…

Vitalik announced the eventual switch to PoS before he was even finished writing Ethereum, before it was released.

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, plopping JavaScript on top of blockchain is not something I would call visionary. Smart contracts were there long before eth. Ethereum is a huge pre-mine scam with lots of promises and very little delivery. It’s got nice PR, but it’s really the PHP of cryptocurrencies. But of course almost everything else except bitcoin is much worse. Turing completeness is literally a bug in such system. It’s an anti-feature.…

Ethereum gets around the halting problem by using a "gas" model, where it halts your execution if you run out of gas before the program returns. If Ethereum is actually the PHP of cryptocurrencies, that puts it in a great spot for adoption.

In any non-trivial program you will not know how much gas it requires to complete because that’s what it means - to solve the halting problem. What a great basis for your financial system handling all people’s economic interactions. What can possibly go wrong.

I’ll stick with deterministic bitcoin script, thankyouverymuch.

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a problem. That's a big reason for moving from proof-of-work to proof-of-stake- to more directly make the _holders_ of Ethereum in charge of the chain. It's a difficult thing to do, though. Hashpower based mining is easier to get going. Proof of stake has issues like the nothing-at-stake problem, where theoretically you could stake-mine on multiple chains: https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/2402/what-…

Imagine if you owned a billion dollars, and that allowed you to say if someone spent 10 dollars at the gas station.

Are you suggesting censorship might be an issue?

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#245
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should think of miners as bodyguards. They aren't intended to be active participants on the network, they are intended to provide the service of securing the network and serving the interests of the users of the network. If a group of bodyguards at a concert vote democratically and 51% of them decide the singer shouldn't be allowed to go on stage and sing (because of a grudge or whatever), is that a problem? Yes…

Tbh, I don't get your analogy, why should the miners be looked at as bodyguards? While I agree the miners are responsible for protecting the network, I don't think you can draw a distinction that easily between an eth holder vs a miner, because anyone can become a miner and anyone can become a holder and an entity can be both a miner and a holder. Everyone who participates in the eth network should have the power to…

The switch to PoS was known for years, miners know they’ll be phased out. The chain is decentralized, but that switch is not (it’s part of the initial chain dev/vision).

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#246
post #12

I'm not an expert, but if 51% of the existing hashpower doesn't want a change, it sounds less a 51% attack and more like miners voting against something that isn't in their interest. The whole point of blockchains is that the incentives are supposed to be aligned between miners and users. If that isn't the case here, it sounds like a problem.

It will be interesting to see how the situation develops if they really do attempt to fork and if normal users want to use ETH2. Miners could potentially want to keep the blockchain going and the value could be artificially high, but with transactions falling down and holders migrating, they couldn't keep it up forever...

There will almost certainly be a split chain that continues to run on pow. Eventually it will die off, like Eth classic

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#247
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should think of miners as bodyguards. They aren't intended to be active participants on the network, they are intended to provide the service of securing the network and serving the interests of the users of the network. If a group of bodyguards at a concert vote democratically and 51% of them decide the singer shouldn't be allowed to go on stage and sing (because of a grudge or whatever), is that a problem? Yes…

Tbh, I don't get your analogy, why should the miners be looked at as bodyguards? While I agree the miners are responsible for protecting the network, I don't think you can draw a distinction that easily between an eth holder vs a miner, because anyone can become a miner and anyone can become a holder and an entity can be both a miner and a holder. Everyone who participates in the eth network should have the power to…

Decentralized blockchains are entirely opt-in. If you are a participant in a blockchain that isn't serving your needs, you can opt out of that blockchain and into a new blockchain.

A hard fork is essentially a large coordinated migration from one blockchain to a new blockchain, generally with a shared history.

Vitalik does not have the sole power to go against the stakeholders of the network and make massive changes to Ethereum. The power that Vitalik has is one of leadership. If he attempts to coordinate a mass migration from one blockchain (old Eth) to another (new Eth), Vitalik actually needs to convince everyone that this is a good idea. He can't force it to happen if people disagree that it's the right thing to do. If Vitalik launches a hardfork and 80% of the network upgrades, that definitionally means that Vitalik had the support of 80% of the network, otherwise they wouldn't have followed the upgrade.

Blockchains are about consent. If you don't like what's happening on a blockchain, make a change. A single person making a change in isolation isn't interesting, but a large group of people making a change together IS interesting, and can be successful even if that group is just a minority. You end up with two different networks, each capable of thriving on their own.

Miners depend on the users of a blockchain for revenue. If a blockchain has no users, there will be no fees, and no revenue. The reverse is not true. If the users determine that they are better off selecting a different set of miners to build and preserve consensus, they can fork the network in a way that changes who is able to mine effectively, but does not otherwise impact daily use of the blockchain.

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EVM is a natural extension of bitcoin's scripting system. Here's the original Ethereum whitepaper, Vitalik cites all sorts of pre-Ethereum work: https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/blob/old-before-deleting-al... There were tokens (Colored Coins) and Dexs (Omni) running on Bitcoin before ETH was launched.

Omni is a completely different blockchain than BTC. That's what powers the Tether network. It's far from decentralized though. It's a cartel of exchanges that operate the network. Colored coins were a neat idea but completely impractical in practice. Hence, why they never took off. Bitcoin script is far too limiting to build expansive applications on.

> Omni is a completely different blockchain than BTC.

Complete nonsense.

a) https://www.omnilayer.org/ - it says "Built in top of the Bitcoin Blockchain" right there on the home page

b) Usually a separate database with an index of overlay transactions is created to enable faster and easier access to overlay transactions in Bitcoin blocks

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#249
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> proving that you have done some known — or at least bounded — amount of work Work for the sake of work is not valuable. You could record video proving that you dug a hole 20 feet deep with your bare hands and then filled it up again. That's a lot of work, but it wouldn't be valuable to anyone, except maybe as comedy.

The video wouldn't be valuable, because it's trivial to duplicate. However, should it be impossible to copy videos and the only way to do a video would be to capture the events as they happen, then perhaps your video would have value.

I'm surprised there aren't a ton of NFTs for videos of people digging holes and filling them up, riffing on both "proof of work" and keynesian ideas.

Re: Vitalik escalates ETH 2.0 merge as miners plan a 51% attack

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tbh, I don't get your analogy, why should the miners be looked at as bodyguards? While I agree the miners are responsible for protecting the network, I don't think you can draw a distinction that easily between an eth holder vs a miner, because anyone can become a miner and anyone can become a holder and an entity can be both a miner and a holder. Everyone who participates in the eth network should have the power to…

Miners don’t dictate protocol rules. Miners do one job - hash blocks. And they get rewarded for it. Miners are only one participant in the ecosystem, there are also users, merchants and developers. Governance of any cryptocurrency is extremely touchy subject and one thing you don’t want to do is setting a precedent for making a controversial change. If you justify such change by “majority of miners want it” - you’re…

>> Miners don’t dictate protocol rules. Miners do one job - hash blocks. And they get rewarded for it.

What? Not really. Miners do indeed dictate the protocol rules, its is the miners agreeing to following a certain version of the consensus algorithm that makes a blockchain do what it does. So they are partly responsible for more than just mining blocks. Like I said initially it is hard to say who the actual decision makers of the chain are because it is not defined properly by eth.

>>Miners are only one participant in the ecosystem, there are also users, merchants and developers.

Like I mentioned in my previous comment, my whole disagreement with the OP of this comment chain is, their analogy calling miners bodyguards only, my argument is that its hard to tell, because anyone can play any role in this network, on eth the incentives are set up in such a way that each actor can be multiple actors, and there isn't any clear distinction as to who gets to decide what on the network.

>>If you justify such change by “majority of miners want it” - you’re basically handing over the protocol to their hands. Nothing will prevent miners to adopt changes that eventually centralize currency control, increase rewards(inflation), etc.

I am not trying to justify it as majority miners want it, my criticism of the eth chain is they have done this sort of nonese in the past (remember the DAO hack where vitalik and co decided to serve their own interests and rolled back a blockchain? )

It clearly shows eth hasn't grown or come up with a solution as to how to govern their blockchain in a decentralized manner. At the moment, a small select group of people, rather than the majority of its stakeholders get to decide what happens to the blockchain, and that to me doesn't look like decentralization.

Whats to stop a powerful government forcing vitalik and co to implement or remove what they want in the future?

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