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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#241

Post by kazinator »

carlisle_ wrote: post #239
kazinator wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm sticking up for the idea that people's anecdotal experiences are valid, within their epistemological/cognitive limits, and not simply "false". That doesn't depend on whether or not someone got banned. That user unfortunately resorted to some behaviors that looked like antagonizing another user at the personal level. His interpretations of some of his experiences are off the mark. E.g. how some coworker hired…

You want to argue that the guy espousing sexism through his anecdotal experiences has valid anecdotes?

Since everyone has valid anecdotes, and that person is a member of everyone, the inescapable logical conclusion is that, indeed, he has valid anecdotes.

I reiterate that I'm using a standard for "valid" that is befitting of anecdotes, which is confined to the facts. It doesn't cover the cherry-picking of observations that are selected as the basis for anecdotes, or the means of drawing conclusions, or the appropriateness or relevance of the anecdotes to the discourse and the like.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#242

Post by 100011_100001 »

jedberg wrote: post #217
100011_100001 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a lot of companies Managers and Directors make more money than being a Developer. On top of that the perception of status is higher from the outside if you are a Director vs a Developer. Smart tech companies have two paths, the management and the engineer path. Where they both have certain expectations but there is no pay ceiling. Bad tech companies tend to disregard this and there is a point that you can no longe…

> Smart tech companies have two paths, the management and the engineer path. In my 25 working years, I've learned this is mostly lip service. Yes, there are ICs who make as much as a VP. But look at Amazon. There are maybe ten people in that company that are IC level making what VPs make. And thousands of VPs. To be a VP, you have to be a really great manager. To get VP pay as an IC (ie. Distinguished Engineer), you…

Absolutely true. Even non FAANG companies have that problem. For example in IBM you have to start producing new patents etc. In short the qualifications a VP vs an IC (as you called them) are in different stratospheres.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#243

Post by kodah »

kristinamay wrote: post #79
kodah wrote: post #7

An inspirational story that anyone, at any level, can always reinvent themselves given time, patience, and a plan. That said, "demotion" doesn't seem like the right word. Yes, going from Director to general population is technically a step down, but more realistically this is a lateral move. In a lateral move sometimes you get to keep your pay but almost never your rank.

Hi! Blog post author here. I didn't keep my old salary, nope. I took a substantial pay cut in order to do this.

Ah, so not a lateral move. Demotion does make sense in that case, though, I wish that outcome would be different. It seems like whatever skills and experience you bring with you would still be relevant, even in an entirely different domain.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#244

Post by kodah »

thebean11 wrote: post #129
kodah wrote: post #7

An inspirational story that anyone, at any level, can always reinvent themselves given time, patience, and a plan. That said, "demotion" doesn't seem like the right word. Yes, going from Director to general population is technically a step down, but more realistically this is a lateral move. In a lateral move sometimes you get to keep your pay but almost never your rank.

> Director to general population is technically a step down, but more realistically this is a lateral move. What makes you say this? An entry level SWE is lateral to a director who is presumably multiple rungs up on the org chart?

It could be considered a lateral move if she retained her pay, but she responded to my comment saying she didn't, which is unfortunate.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#245

Post by munchbunny »

geophile wrote: post #65
smileysteve wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meetings made me literally sick to my stomach, I don't know that you should use this criteria as the sole deal breaker. Managers should be shielding teams from unproductive meetings and pushing for productivity (action items) from the meetings that happen - holding their peers to a degree of standards. Now, if you hate 1:1, org planning, and successful m…

Everything about it. Every moment spent organizing, planning, reviewing, coordinating, is just torture. If, at work, I am doing anything but working on code, or preparing to (researching, reading, etc.), I feel like I am wasting my time, and it is just draining. At the end of a work day, my mood is completely determined by how much time I spent on code.

I'm glad that people are becoming increasingly aware of this.

I found that I don't mind managing, but it's such a different type of work. As an IC I went home (before COVID anyway) mentally exhausted. As a manager I went home emotionally exhausted. Different people are better at recovering from either state of exhaustion.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#246

Post by dasil003 »

throwaway667555 wrote: post #73
skeeter2020 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always believed and practiced this too. You get the promotion & bump because you're already essentially doing the job. I'm OK with a trial without the promotion, but many (most?) seem to think you should get the opportunity to succeed or fail, with the rewards up front. I do't get this viewpoint.

This is mild exploitation widespread in employment, and I think you're identifying with the exploiter. It's not the rewards up front, it's the rewards as-you-go. Or it's the rewards at the end of the previous rank. Always having your pay 1yr behind your responsibilities is wrong. You're doing the job, you get the pay. On day 1 of being a lead, you've never been a lead before, but you are now. Year 1 leads get lead pa…

This is like a playbook for hollowing out an organization's talent via the Peter Principle.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#247

Post by kristinamay »

kodah wrote: post #243
kristinamay wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! Blog post author here. I didn't keep my old salary, nope. I took a substantial pay cut in order to do this.

Ah, so not a lateral move. Demotion does make sense in that case, though, I wish that outcome would be different. It seems like whatever skills and experience you bring with you would still be relevant, even in an entirely different domain.

I was prepared for that and expecting it. I also didn't start at the very lowest rung of pay for this role: they took into account my years of building up knowledge about our product and other non-programming skills like communication and design in determining my new salary.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#248

Post by amzn-throw »

ignoramous wrote: post #89

Reminds me of a "self-demotion" that worked out well: That of a certain Allan Vermeulen [0] who, by some accounts, was the chief architect of Amazon S3 [1], and by all accounts, an engineer extraordinaire. Vermeulen managed the Platform Services group when he joined [2], and later moved to a CTO role with focus on the then very nascent Web Services initiative [3], but eventually "demoted" himself to an "AWS Engineer"…

alv is a role model to so many inside Amazon, because

1) His internal tech talks are fun, peculiar, and make complex concepts easy to understand

2) His contributions go far beyond "Just S3" - though that would be enough. His low level frameworks and concepts underpin almost all complex AWS distributed systems - from databases to messages.

3) he STILL Codes, iterating on ideas, and pushing scalability of distributed systems to the next level

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#250

Post by nonamenoslogan »

kristinamay wrote: post #79
kodah wrote: post #7

An inspirational story that anyone, at any level, can always reinvent themselves given time, patience, and a plan. That said, "demotion" doesn't seem like the right word. Yes, going from Director to general population is technically a step down, but more realistically this is a lateral move. In a lateral move sometimes you get to keep your pay but almost never your rank.

Hi! Blog post author here. I didn't keep my old salary, nope. I took a substantial pay cut in order to do this.

Thanks for your insight. I'm at a similar crossroads currently and leaning toward staying in my current role. Basically about 14 years ago, I left a Fortune 500 company where I was a Network Administrator for a decade to go to a University and took a large pay cut to become an IT Analyst. Primary reason was wanting to get another degree, cheaply. After 7 years as an Analyst, I was promoted to manager of the team. After 3 years of that, I realized I wasn't good at managing people and I was a "do-er," and left from managing (with a HUGE paycut, again) to go back to Analyst in county government.

Fast forward 3 years and here I am, being asked to be an Interim-Director as the director here is now retiring and I'm the only one with management experience. They are then in turn 'encouraging' me to apply for the full time director position, saying how I'm the most qualified and despite the "promote from within" policy, they want me to go up against external candidates to "earn" the job they asked me to interim.

I've wracked my brain for a week now--I'm an engineer level do-er, I'm not a manager, but 22K a year is a NICE increase and I want to buy a home. Part of me says "thanks but no thanks, I'm not going to apply for a promotion to a job you obviously think I'm qualified for but won't offer out-right if its going to be a massive paradigm shift AGAIN for me," and another part says, "Dude, you're so dumb if you don't apply for a job that pays 30% more than you're currently making!"

I've got a couple weeks to decide--money isn't my driving factor, the ability to "turn off" at the end of the day is.

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