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Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

arstechnica.com

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Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#241

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

gkoberger wrote: post #211
threeseed wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla's embedded developers did not understand the extremely simple concept of write endurance Equally likely is that they do understand but just don't care. From all accounts, Tesla seems to have a culture of move fast and break things.

Hmm I don't want to defend Tesla, but I do want to push back on this a bit! Facebook made "move fast and break things" famous, which was Zuckerberg's way of presenting a tradeoff. Everyone company says they want to move fast, but Zuckerberg made it clear that the company should care more about velocity than stability. I don't believe that's Tesla's attitude. Rather, I think their attitude is more "move fast and ignor…

Regulations are all we have to keep things from breaking...ignoring them about something like a self driving car should be a criminal offense.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#242

Post by AshWolfy »

sixQuarks wrote: post #87
onion2k wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla (and Comma.ai ?) seem to be the only groups that find Lidar unnecessary for L5 self-driving. There is another group who find Lidar unnecessary for driving: humans.

wow, getting downvoted for stating this fact. I can't believe the anti-Musk bias here on HN. You would think HN would actually appreciate one of the more innovative entrepreneurs on the planet.

Elon musk is everything wrong with the tech industry as a whole, overpriced, over engineered, and QA lacking products, hes arrogant when he shouldnt be, and his "disruptions" are mostly stupid, what accomplishments he does have are largely the result of engineers he pays that he takes credit for

the only thing he is good at is marketing himself

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#243

Post by judge2020 »

afavour wrote: post #195
snoshy wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. There's real world video footage showing the vehicle behavior that includes Tesla animations showing the vehicle's current understanding of the environment. It's rather cheap to take trivial shots at Tesla (no matter how bad their product might be) while comparing it to 23 year old understanding of human-machine automation in an entirely different context such as aviation. Quite unfortunate you're downvoted,…

Can the footage be trusted? From my understanding Tesla has only rolled this out to a small number of users, browsing the YT search results you’ve provided I see that almost all the results are Tesla super fan accounts. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to disregard this until you see an objective assessment in the field.

There is a NDA. One tester has said that it [at least in part] says "you can't livestream drives"[0], and while otherwise NDA details are sparse, given the many close calls, bad performance situations, and multiple periods of rapid uploads [1,2], chances are they aren't screening videos.

0: https://youtu.be/AkexMo_jdcQ?t=346

1: https://i.judge.sh/enormous/Flim/chrome_RIGtEw3oE3.png (Chuck Cook)

2: https://i.judge.sh/sturdy/Derpy/chrome_NZrYtjHAeP.png (Tesla Owners Silicon Valley)

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#244

Post by bigphishy »

Arainach wrote: post #124
georgewfraser wrote: post #116

I have a model Y and what it has today is 80% as useful as a completely self driving car. It’s mostly self driving on the highway, and the situations it can’t handle are very predictable: toll booths, stopped cars in the middle of the road, things like that. You need to available to drive but you always have plenty of warning before you need to take over.

80% as good is 1000% as dangerous. Tesla's vehicles perform just well enough to convince many users they're good enough to "self drive" and ignore while failing catastrophically in edge cases and absolutely not being ready to completely ignore. Tesla's reckless "autopilot" branding contributes to this.

Reality is not black and white. You need to strike a balance.

The claim of "1000% as dangerous" is sensational, and frankly, should be backed up by facts, or else you are just smearing mud.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#245

Post by joeblau »

kerng wrote: post #233

So much hate towards Tesla here. I'm more neutral - dont have a strong opinion on this. But from Google's messaging it seems that the Waymo CEO is maybe a bit defensive (scared?). Tesla has probably the long term better strategy which leads to more accurate up to date data to constantly improve their system. Tesla's crowdsourcing strategy might be the winning horse in this race.

The term you’re looking for is “Federated Machine Learning.” The more cars Tesla has, the faster they can train the neural networks edge cases.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#246

Post by gkoberger »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #214
gkoberger wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm I don't want to defend Tesla, but I do want to push back on this a bit! Facebook made "move fast and break things" famous, which was Zuckerberg's way of presenting a tradeoff. Everyone company says they want to move fast, but Zuckerberg made it clear that the company should care more about velocity than stability. I don't believe that's Tesla's attitude. Rather, I think their attitude is more "move fast and ignor…

But things have literally broken.

Sure, but I think you're missing my point.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#247

Post by gkoberger »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #241
gkoberger wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm I don't want to defend Tesla, but I do want to push back on this a bit! Facebook made "move fast and break things" famous, which was Zuckerberg's way of presenting a tradeoff. Everyone company says they want to move fast, but Zuckerberg made it clear that the company should care more about velocity than stability. I don't believe that's Tesla's attitude. Rather, I think their attitude is more "move fast and ignor…

Regulations are all we have to keep things from breaking...ignoring them about something like a self driving car should be a criminal offense.

I don't disagree! I just think people misinterpret "move fast and break things" and use it anytime something breaks. I realize it's a nuanced point.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#248

Post by craftinator »

nemothekid wrote: post #177
meekrohprocess wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have one question for Tesla customers who trust the company to deliver full FSD. How do you reconcile that belief with the fact that Tesla's embedded developers did not understand the extremely simple concept of write endurance? The NHTSA opened an investigation into premature HUD failures because they prevented the backup cameras from working. But the fact of the matter is, the company used a small partition of in…

Please note that you are asking this question at the tail end of pandemic where a significant portion of the country decided it was preferable to "just let some old people die" than to lockdown or even wear masks. Those people will twist themselves into giving you a PC answer but the truth is they're willing to crack a few eggs in order get FSD today. They'll tell you no one else is even trying and in the long run FS…

> in the long run FSD will save more lives and Musk should be praised for having the gumption to get the ball rolling.

In the long run, for the historical perspective, this is a very plausible outcome. It's happened before (any major construction projects prior to the 1950's, anything involving Thomas Edison, most large damming projects), where a historical event is tied to a bunch of dead innocents, but history books praise the vision and determination of the ones in charge to not give up just because a few measly blue collars kicked the bucket early.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#249

Post by ra7 »

snoshy wrote: post #228
afavour wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can the footage be trusted? From my understanding Tesla has only rolled this out to a small number of users, browsing the YT search results you’ve provided I see that almost all the results are Tesla super fan accounts. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to disregard this until you see an objective assessment in the field.

It's fair to question the motivations of the FSD beta testers. They were obviously hand picked to ensure maximum safety, adequate public profile, having committed large sums of money to prove their allegiance, as well as being existing fans of the company. So they're likely to be biased. But that's a long way from alleging that they've doctored their videos, or that Tesla itself has censored them. There are many many…

> Compare that to Waymo or Cruise or anyone else. They are obviously heavily censoring and have no independent owners recording footage, nor sharing it like this. It's a huge step up in much needed transparency.

You clearly haven't searched Youtube. https://www.youtube.com/c/JJRicksStudios is one such channel which frequently posts videos of his Waymo rides. There are others if you search, not so much volume as Tesla though.

Re: Waymo CEO dismisses Tesla self-driving plan: “This is not how it works”

#250

Post by vulcan01 »

aeternum wrote: post #227
brownbat wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm optimistic for this area of tech and research in general, but agree we need to stop benchmarking against average human crash rates. Although anyone can be hit at any time, the distribution of human crashes is not purely random. People who drive compromised, for example, are way overrepresented in those events. So, theoretically, the tech could get to a point with a lower than expected crash rate for humans genera…

If you believe you are a better than average driver when manually driving, why couldn't you also be better than average at intervening when autopilot is driving? Humans don't have forward facing radar nor 360 degree always active vision, so in some cases, cars can see hazards that even a perfect human driver cannot.

It's a natural human tendency to get distracted, especially when we are not engaged with a task (as with autopilot). Driving manually physically engages your body in the task, making it harder to get distracted. On the other hand intervening is subject to distraction and longer response times.
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