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Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

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Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#241

Post by moate »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #222
myownpetard wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Democratic Party is too large of an umbrella these days. Anybody whose primary concerns are among fiscal responsibility/the deficit, public education, effective foreign policy, civil rights, human rights, political corruption, science based public health/policy, climate change, domestic extremism, an independent judiciary etc. has moved into the democratic party. The Republican Party is for people whose primary c…

Have you ever talked to a single Republican? You’re way off base, especially with the race baiting.

What do you view the Republican platform as being? What specifically is he wrong about?

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#242

Post by tenpies »

omegaworks wrote: post #172
kortilla wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most recent drama was about a researcher having her quitting ultimatum called by a manager. It wasn’t anything to do with sexual harassment or anything about underpaid or unsafe workplaces.

Google has a white supremacy problem. The James Damore incident was a highly public display of that internal tension. It's a sign they have made little progress resolving it with the firing of Timnit Gebru, an eminently qualified data scientist that focused her work on that exact issue. A union is not just about how "highly paid" employees are, it can help protect employees from those kinds of institutional deficienc…

And this is the problem with the Google Union. The ideologies already commanding way too much of the discussion are going to be hyper-empowered by the union.

By 2025 I imagine that if you Google "conservative" you'll instantly have all your Google Services wiped, get banned from the platform, and be reported to the Progressive Thought Technology Alliance Union, so that Twitter and AWS can do the same to you.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#243

Post by pingpongchef »

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #154
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #26

I asked this in the google union thread, but was too late to the party to get any answers. Copy pasting it here: Everybody here seems to agree that unions have the potential to do good or bad in every thread on it. The next logical step to me is that there needs to be a selection mechanism in place. For companies, the selection mechanism is competition. If someone else does better, the consumer or worker can choose s…

Why would people want competition on a union? They don't work like corporations - competition weakens them. I think this fundamentally misunderstands the purpose and function of a union.

I can think of a few reasons competition can be beneficial.

1. Exert downward pressure on union fees

2. Offer alternatives in the case of union corruption

3. Offer alternatives in union priorities/mission

Also, I don't follow how competition in the two spaces, firms and unions, is necessarily different in kind. To the degree that competition "weakens" unions, the same should apply to firms.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#244

Post by konjin »

random5634 wrote: post #21
simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

How are any of those things bad?

You need to look after your interests first. Your anecdotes do that. It's not your job to make sure everyone has a "fair" life. You job is to make sure you get as much as you can. That's what capitalism is.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#245

Post by j_walter »

pmoriarty wrote: post #83
j_walter wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions in the US and unions is Europe are completely different. In one they cooperate to see that the company succeeds...and in the other they seek to drive up the cost of doing business to the point that shitty products are extremely expensive (GM, Ford). Unions used to be for protecting the workers and ensuring that companies were getting the very best skillsets when hiring. Now they protect the lazy, promote the w…

"Port of Portland is now shuttered because they intentionally slowed down work to the point of forcing companies to go elsewhere." Unions should be everywhere, so these companies could not escape them by relocating. Capital trying to feel the country should also be taxed heavily for the same reason.

They went to the port of Seattle and LA...same union but different local leadership. They weren't much better, but better enough to relocate and pay to truck goods up and down the I5 corridor.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#246

Post by kuang_eleven »

txsoftwaredev wrote: post #200
LatteLazy wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obamacare got a lot of workers at places like amazon warehouses healthcare. Cancelling student debt will help a shit tonne more workers. He has a section on his campaign website addressing Union specifics: https://joebiden.com/empowerworkers/ Well see what he can actually does, but with the senate in democrat hands, the sky is the limit.

"Cancelling student debt will help a shit tonne more workers." I will feel terrible if that ever happens for folks that were smart with money and didn't incur tons of debt. It's gonna be a real bummer when you learn that you paid off your educational debt or never had any and that now you get to pay off debt of others that made bad decisions.

I, as someone with no outstanding student debts anymore, would be ecstatic to have universal student loan forgiveness. It is the right thing to do, and part of being a conscientious citizen is advocating for issues that help society, even if they don't help yourself.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#247

Post by conanbatt »

random5634 wrote: post #21
simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

> The real rule should be all poorly compensated folks paid $14/hr or less should automatically be in unions. That's where the real need is.

This way they get to be compensated at 12/hr

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#248

Post by jskell725 »

DenisM wrote: post #100
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #2

I wonder what percentage of otherwise very liberal Amazon devs read sentences like "The company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." and come away thinking "we're definitely the good guys."

Sometime during the last year the usually heavily statist left became heavily corporatist. I'm not sure what to make of it.

To this point - Lately I've found myself arguing for Medicare for All from the "right", against e.g. classifying gig workers as employees so they get corporate benefits from the "left".

In a universe where public social programs are impossible; I find many of these corporatist-redistributionist arguments sort of interesting. But in this one; I really do think we should tax corporations more and fund State programs.

If everyone has medicare for all and eviction protections; do we still care whether amazon can fire a worker from a warehouse?

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#249

Post by j_walter »

maxerickson wrote: post #211
refurb wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a planned economy. We know how well that works.

China has been doing okay using that sort of high level planning, where the government supervises a lot of the economy and limits the movement of capital.

You really think that? Talk to any of the chinese citizens that have fled the country to live elsewhere. Certain parts of how that government runs may look good from afar, but not if you are actually living under their rule.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#250

Post by guerrilla »

rayiner wrote: post #226
pmoriarty wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses are used to reject unions outright rather than looking at whether unions as a whole would benefit society. You could argue from personal experience that you went to a bad school therefore all schools are bad, or you had a bad experience with therefore all people of that sort are bad. It's just not very convincing.

It’s not “anecdotes about isolated abuses.” Even parents I know who are solidly on the left are outraged by how completely inflexible teachers’ unions have been during the pandemic. Even people I know who are ardent Democrats in states like Illinois grumble quietly about the government having no money because they’re crushed under pension obligations. The problem is that, in the US, most peoples’ experiences with uni…

"It's not only anecdotes" and giving more anecdotes isn't an argument.
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