How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant • Hacker News Board

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#241

Post by GordonS » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 8:16 PM UTC

merb wrote: post #226

GordonS wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Use your US CC, make charge-backs I'm in the UK, and made my first ever charge back a couple of months back, after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus (we'd booked it before the pandemic started). I'd paid with my CC (a UK card; not sure why it would be any different with a US CC?). I forget the exact sum, but it was something like £1,500. Ryanair completely took the piss - the…

> after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus really really doubt that you even tried. In mainland europe you just needed to fill a form, after a month you would have your money back.

Don't be so bloody rude, why on earth would I make up something like this?

I sent numerous emails, filled in maybe 6 forms, and multiple times had their understaffed online chat system open for up to 8 hours trying to speak to someone - for all the good it did when they answered.

Here in the UK, at the start, yes, Ryanair asked you to fill in a form, and said they would issue refunds within 14 days. I, like several thousand of others, duely filled in the form - only for Ryanair to change their tune a couple of weeks later. My guess was they'd sought legal advice, and found some loophole they thought would allow them to get away with it.

They went several weeks at a time with no general customer communications, and weren't replying to emails - on the rare occasions they did, it was to say they'd process refunds "later". Some weeks later, they sent out a general customer email, saying they'd only be issuing (short-lived!) credit notes instead of refunds, and anyone who declined would have to apply again, and would then have to wait until the pandemic was over for a refund. This whole (illegal!) debacle was very widely reported in the British media.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#242

Post by lolc » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 8:26 PM UTC

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #193

This whole article read like an undisputable libel piece to name and shame a company. Also, if a company tries to give me that run around once, why would I ever bother repping their products ever again? Also...it was $80. I do realize it can buy a decent amount of stuff but the amount of work and time this guy spent writing emails about this, he would've been better off black listing them.

What is indisputable libel here? Are you saying the author is lying about the facts?

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#243

Post by newdude116 » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #153

GordonS wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Use your US CC, make charge-backs I'm in the UK, and made my first ever charge back a couple of months back, after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus (we'd booked it before the pandemic started). I'd paid with my CC (a UK card; not sure why it would be any different with a US CC?). I forget the exact sum, but it was something like £1,500. Ryanair completely took the piss - the…

Similar dance with Qantas, although we didn't have to use a chargeback. But after several months, we finally got them on the phone, and they said "we'll refund. it may take X days". X+30 days later we had no movement, called again. and they said there was no record, and then offered to refund - but only a partial amount (they weren't seeing extra fee charges on their end). Too much back and forth, but over 8 months a…

"and close to 4 months of calls and waiting"

This is what charge backs are for. It is not my duty to invest time, nerves and potentially even pay interest for this.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#244

Post by davewritescode » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

Personally I’ve found that when someone does you completely wrong by doing something as egregiously bad (i.e. fraud) you can certainly find success being a huge asshole about it. Most people do not like being on the receiving end of justified berating and will do almost anything to make it stop. Sometimes starting off being an asshole and letting yourself be talked down creates a window for a quick agreement. It’s not a nice way to deal with things and some people aren’t always comfortable being the “bad guy” but it is effective with certain personalities.

The most important part of this article is that the author was right and had proof. The way in which he conducted himself was likely inconsequential but writing an article about being a dick and getting what you want won’t generate clicks.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#245

Post by mtlynch » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

jldugger wrote: post #238

mtlynch wrote: post #97

Author here. Happy to answer any questions or take any feedback about this post. I wrote it a few months ago and submitted it at the time[0], but it didn't seem like it was a match for HN. I was quite surprised when I woke up to find a tweet from a friend letting me know it was on the front page. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24144103

Pardon my ignorance on the keto lifestyle, but do you think that 10 bucks per loaf of bread is a reasonable price? Even the reviews on their website indicate a lot of people think it's expensive. Obviously your keto site has a lot of products, but given the energy in this particular affiliate writeup, have you seen their product in retail anywhere?

Thanks for reading!

>do you think that 10 bucks per loaf of bread is a reasonable price? Even the reviews on their website indicate a lot of people think it's expensive.

Eh, it's sort of like anything else. People spend thousands of dollars on speakers, which is an unreasonable price to me but a reasonable price to the buyer. If you want bread that fits into the keto diet, "reasonable" is just a matter of what it's worth to you.

I also think that for many medium-to-high-income consumers, paying a $7 premium on a food they want is not that significant.

But I've never seen their product in retail stores. I put in the effort on chasing down the money more out of principle than hopes that I'd get any significant money out of the deal.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#246

Post by danparsonson » Sun, Dec 06, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

momokoko wrote: post #207

danparsonson wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ethical and considerate _actions_ are important at all times Agree with that; > Actions have real life, often irreversible, effects on those around you agree with that also; > Many very dishonest people help themselves sleep at night by pretending that being polite excuses their actions I could believe this is true, although I suspect most habitually dishonest people don't even see themselves as dishonest or think…

> in my experience, the latter is more effective at getting the best outcome, regardless of who is nominally at fault. This is exactly my point. You are using politeness as a manipulative tactic to get your way. Instead, realize getting the wrong order at a restaurant is an incredibly insignificant issue. There was never anything to be upset about in the first place. Regardless the outcome. If someone messes up your…

> You are using politeness as a manipulative tactic to get your way.

That's a very cynical view and not what I'm talking about at all.

Yes, people manipulate other people using politeness sometimes. Being polite does not in general make a person manipulative.

> Regardless the outcome. If someone messes up your order you just say “Looks like we have the wrong order. We ordered X”

But... your example is a polite response, albeit impersonal. This is more or less what I would say. Do we have a different definition of politeness?

> I’m saying you don’t need to be polite as much as you need to not hurt people

I agree that trying not to hurt people is the right thing to do - but using the right language can be important in achieving that. Gentle language can reduce the pressure the other person is feeling if there is a problem to resolve. That's not manipulation, it's empathy.

You highlighted the phrase I used: "the latter is more effective at getting the best outcome, regardless of who is nominally at fault" - here I think we're just using language differently to each other. When I talk about getting the best outcome, I'm not talking about trying to trick someone into doing something for me. If I raise an objection, I have a specific outcome in mind - e.g. I would like my order to be fixed (and yes, this is a trivial example - in reality I would probably just eat what I'm given unless I don't like it, but in any case this is just a thought experiment). Having an outcome in mind and hoping for it to be a good outcome are not about manipulation; it's about understanding that some conversations involve transactions, and they can be concluded pleasantly and positively for all involved, or not. Manipulating someone in fact aims to achieve maximum benefit for one party at the expense of the other party, and even if it wears a "polite face" it is in fact the opposite of genuine politeness.

I feel like you and I probably actually agree but are just talking about slightly different thing. Otherwise I still don't understand what you're saying.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#247

Post by pavel_lishin » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 12:22 AM UTC

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #194

pavel_lishin wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cops are extremely respectful I'm glad you've had only positive experiences with the police, but this is a hell of a take in 2020.

The majority of cops outside of major metro areas aren't entirely shitheads. Half the time they're just traffic cops.

Ah, yes - it's just a few bad apples.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#248

Post by everybodyknows » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 12:57 AM UTC

technothrasher wrote: post #137

sverhagen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US system is based on liability and the threat of legal action. The European system is based on their regulatory framework. If you have a complaint that is clearly managed within that framework (my laundry machine spontaneously broke down within the statutory warranty period) they'll comply, else, yeah, good luck. I moved in the other direction (to the US) and I'm amazed when my wife gets a $50 little blender rep…

Sometimes the regulatory route works in the US. We had our main business phone line go down and Verizon customer service basically shrugged their shoulders and said there was nothing they could do and no way to escalate. One call to the state regulator and not only did they fix the phone line within a couple hours, they begged us to tell them what they could do to make the regulatory complaint go away. We told them w…

A state regulatory responsibility, IIUC. What state are you in?

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#249

Post by stickfigure » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 4:12 AM UTC

m12k wrote: post #202

stickfigure wrote: post #42

Geez. This article was hard to follow but... it sounds like the merchant is really screwing up. My SaaS business gets most of our users via an affiliate program, and many years ago I worked in porn where nearly all of our users from an affiliate program. The #1 rule of affiliate programs is to treat affiliates like royalty. Or more accurately - business partners. Be clear about what you offer, be generous, and always…

Do you use any of this affiliate 3rd party software yourself or did you roll your own solution? I'd like to make an affiliate sales program for my SaaS too, but it's hard to figure out where to start. I don't want to invest a lot of time integrating with X if nobody uses X, but I also don't want to invest a lot of time in rolling my own if everyone expects you to be using X.

We wrote our own, but that's because of the nature of our business and our program. YMMV.

If you're trying to get professional affiliates to market your business, sure, use third party software. Most the affiliates know the systems already and have some level of trust in it. Plus the software will provide analytics, payouts to various countries, tax guidance, etc.

Our program is primarily a referral program for existing customers. There's no separate affiliate account and credits automatically offset the fees we charge. Plus I like Stripe and don't want a bunch of third-party PHP crapware invading our already complex billing system. DIY was really the only option.

The things that make our customers want to refer others are not necessarily what will work for anyone else. Our current referral system would never fly with the porn affiliates, but also an impersonal "make $ fast!" affiliate system would never resonate with our customers.

A basic referral tracking system is super easy. Give users links they can share; clicking on the link puts a value in local storage; pass that value along with signups. Offer something meaningful to new customers who come in through a referral (for us, it's a discounted first month). If you're just trying to increase word of mouth spread, that's enough to get started.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#250

Post by raz32dust » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 4:15 AM UTC

mtlynch wrote: post #112

raz32dust wrote: post #29

How is there no better way to track conversions in a standard way by a third party? This whole win relies on the fact that the affiliate manager let out the real policy. She could have just said that there were no conversions, and the author would basically have no recourse?

Author here. Yeah, that was my initial thought too, but thinking about it more, I understand why that doesn't exist. Merchants are the ones paying the affiliate platforms, so the affiliate platforms don't have incentive to create features designed to increase power of the affiliates at the expense of the merchant. Affiliates in this space don't seem to be very discriminating. The only communities I've found for keto…

Yeah, makes sense. It would be hard to gain initial traction and the business model can be tricky. But the merchants also of course get value from the affiliates, so once it catches on with affiliates, they could demand merchants to use this service for checkouts for trust and verification, if it is lightweight enough. Could just be javascript like google analytics or piwik.