The Verge published article:) I wonder why there is no comment section in it. https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/3/22150355/google-fires-tim... Seriously I am not American and don't work for American companies. Politicisation of companies for me is dangerous path, in my humble view meritocracy is in core of successful enterprise. This "woke" thing creates more inequality from this perspective. But I am just another cog…
I think that as an ethicist in the field of race and AI there's really no way to escape politicization. If you identify bias in a company centered around race (note, not using the term racism, as I think often the bias isn't intentional), its hard to take action w/o politics coming into play almost immediately.
Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
241–250 of 310 posts
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
To me, it stinks like a convenient excuse to remove someone who was difficult to work with. Only last week she slandered her bosses on Twitter, which is a public forum.
Slandered, how? https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1331757629996109824?s... seems to be the complaint. This seems plausible given her work to push towards less biased data/algorithms got squashed and she resigned.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#243The Verge published article:) I wonder why there is no comment section in it. https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/3/22150355/google-fires-tim... Seriously I am not American and don't work for American companies. Politicisation of companies for me is dangerous path, in my humble view meritocracy is in core of successful enterprise. This "woke" thing creates more inequality from this perspective. But I am just another cog…
I think that as an ethicist in the field of race and AI there's really no way to escape politicization. If you identify bias in a company centered around race (note, not using the term racism, as I think often the bias isn't intentional), its hard to take action w/o politics coming into play almost immediately.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#244Too many people expecting too perfect of behavior from someone apparently put it a shitty situation by much more powerful forces.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the interest of explaining (not arguing), I believe the distinction is sort of that the community at large recognizes performance only on certain metrics. Let's set aside the notion of whether something or someone is "racist" because that's a bit charged. We'll instead just talk about whether we're creating generally capable systems. For instance, if I were to champion metric A which purports to measure performanc…
Wouldn't it be a lot more productive to lobby for inclusion of more samples into the performance measurement datasets than to get into super-combative twitter pissfights with people who aren't even opposed to that? That's, like, not even culture war, it's just basic correctness of the reference datasets. If a fruit classifier was missing oranges, we'd just fix it and move on.
Like, for instance, HN has people who will bring up privacy violations of big tech constantly. They see their role as making sure the conversation is happening. Not justifying this. Just aiming to understand it.
For my part, I prefer to take the approach you're talking about because I, too, think that the fastest path to this is getting the photos, labeling the photos, and then lobbying for inclusion. Ultimately, I think it's okay if things optimize fast for growth and then we fix up issues afterwards. So the people building the benchmark sets weren't able to get a set that's representative of humanity. Should they have waited till they could have done that? IMHO, no. Rapid release moves the state of the art forward and then we can put in all of these corrections as we move.
Then there's the question of whether all-humans dataset is a good thing or if instead a thing that is white-humans and another that is black-humans is better. Anyway, all said, my personal approach to this problem (if I cared about it a lot, which I don't) would be to say "Current benchmarks and training data available bias towards certain races. I'd like to build X/Y to solve that. Here's what I have so far" etc. etc. I think positive engagement like that yields better results because the vast majority of scientists actually aren't weird race supremacists and the vast majority of AI researchers will gobble up any more data you give them which is segmented and labeled differently, the greedy bastards :D
Some challenges that I can still see:
* Getting the data. Might not actually exist.
* Labeling the data. Probably needs some work.
* Getting it into the benchmarks. It'll invalidate old scores, so there's just a product adoption problem here. I don't know how the community handles newer releases.
As a last aside, I suspect that this conversation ended up the way it did because:
a. It's charged. It's race-based differing outcomes. That's a sensitive subject.
b. People feel unheard. This is natural. Like, this is not an 'interesting' problem. It's literally just a data error so the luminaries in the techniques part of the field aren't really that interested in it. And the techniques part is where the sexy is.
c. This sort of thing has a tendency to escalate. One side says "You're not listening to what I say" and the other side says "I'm not racist. I don't get why you're calling me that" and before you know it it becomes "You have to be racist to be ignoring me" and whatnot and de-escalation becomes impossible. Especially because everyone rewards the loudest on each side.
Honestly, I think it's quite interesting to observe and to understand as just a view into the human condition but we use AI models professionally in the GIS space and professionally we just don't go near this at all. No part of me finds it interesting to solve or to interact with the discussion in any way. I only sort of participated in this here because I think I managed some insight into what it is and I wanted to write that down because I wish someone else could have accelerated me into it.
Anyway, I think that's all the insight I have on the subject, so I'm going to just leave it there. Any more and I'll be ass-pulling.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#246The comments here are disheartening, essentially a combination of “It was Google’s right to fire her” and “She seemed ‘difficult.’” For an industry-operated “Ethics in AI” group to have any teeth, it can’t fire people when they do research that makes them look bad, or when members of the group are ‘difficult.’ (Multiple members of the team she managed have said that she was a great manager and this came as a total su…
As somebody who has been involved in various diversity efforts for years, I'm honestly not that upset about all of this. There are real problems associated with discrimination in the US, for example in the criminal justice system. Likewise, there is discrimination in less high-stakes areas like tech. However, the main problem with Timnit and her colleagues is that they come into every situation assuming racism even w…
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#247Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I’m not sure what else there is possibly wrong here. Is the width of their convolutions racist? Not that parameter specifically, but if you say the data is wrong then that means any other parameter might be wrong too. More data might mean the model is too small to fit it, or the hyperparameters might be wrong to train it, or you now have the wrong ratio of other phenotypes (let's say that instead of races…) in the…
Occam's razor makes us think in this case it's the data, the simplest explanation.
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#249> Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback. Timnit wrote that if we didn’t meet these demands, she would leave Google and work on an end date. We accept and respect her decision to resign from Google.
Source: https://www.platformer.news/p/the-withering-email-that-got-a...
Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google
#250The demand she made was for her manager to share the names and comments of everyone who reviewed her paper. > Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback. Timnit wrote that if we didn’t m…