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World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

theguardian.com

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Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#241

Post by MaxBarraclough »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #231
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only logical endpoint is that humans should just off themselves so we don't participate past one cycle of reabsorption into the Earth's environment. That would obliterate all future human happiness. It doesn't stand up even under a cold utilitarian conception of morality.

I thought the whole premise was that we needed to limit the suffering of other living things that aren't humans at all costs, not about human happiness.

Very few people hold that moral view.

There are various reasons people become vegan or vegetarian, there's no single premise.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#242

Post by [deleted] »

wpietri wrote: post #78
slothtrop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. That's a weird complaint on a site about eternal disruption, eternal improvement of things that are basically fine already. I'm an omnivore, and I'm comfortable with it. But that doesn't keep me from recognizing the ethical issues with killing and controlling other beings to survive. I really appreciate people pushing the envelope on this. If I could eat basically the same diet but…

[deleted]

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#243

Post by [deleted] »

jedimastert wrote: post #227
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #202

Every time I see how animals on factory farms are treated I want to take up hunting.

I continually struggle with the fact that, while I don't find eating animals morally wrong when treated and killed humanly, I don't think I could kill an animal myself.

[deleted]

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#244

Post by disown »

seventytwo wrote: post #210

I wonder where anti-abortion people come down on this. In their view, isn’t destroying the male egg the same as culling the male chick?

> I wonder where anti-abortion people come down on this.

I don't think it matter whether you are pro-abortion or anti-abortion since it's a chicken we are talking about. The abortion debate is about human life. Why post such flamebait?

> In their view, isn’t destroying the male egg the same as culling the male chick?

Fundamentally, a male chick dies/ceases to exist/etc.

I'm "pro-abortion" but the problem with fundamentalists like you is that you give everybody a bad name. Stop trying to turn everything to push your agenda.

Would you be okay with someone stepping on an egg with a male chick inside it? Probably not. Does it make pro-abortion view hypocritical? Not really. Because at the extremes, things get uncomfortable for both sides of the argument.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#245

Post by toiletfuneral »

slothtrop wrote: post #60
difosfor wrote: post #59

I suppose it's slightly more animal friendly. On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals and just continuing on with a small numb…

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

fuck off

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#246

Post by curryst »

barkingcat wrote: post #152
bayindirh wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of re…

to inject a bit of humour: "When I share this research with vegans and vegetarians, their response is: crickets." I'm suprised the vegetarians you're talking to would suggest crickets, even though that's one of the leading animal protein replacements in the form of insects. Do vegetarians/vegans have similar ethical objections about eating crickets for food? I suspect so, but I don't know if crickets have the same ty…

As someone who raises crickets for pet food, I can confidently tell you that you needn't kill crickets. Just give them a water dish and at least 10 will promptly drown themselves. They're either suicidal, or so painfully stupid that the only reason they haven't been wiped off the face of the planet is the incredible rate they reproduce at.

In a less facetious sense, I do believe that insect neurology is substantially different. Crustaceans have a nervous system web, which is why you have to cut crabs and lobsters in half to kill them rather than just stabbing them in the head.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#247

Post by morelisp »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #207
howlin wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several responses to the "plants have senses" rebuttal: If you care about the well being of plants, you should still prefer to eat plants rather than animals. The trophic level of animals in the food chain necessitates that they will eat more calories of plant matter than would provide calories of food upon being eaten. Secondly, you should look at the sorts of plants being consumed and where they fall in t…

> There would be no evolutionary purpose for plants to develop a sense of suffering if they have no practical use for that sensation. You've made interesting points, but I think the most important point here isn't one of biology but of moral philosophy: animals presumably outrank plants in terms of moral standing. Torturing a person is presumably worse than torturing a mosquito. A person has more capacity for pain th…

> animals presumably outrank plants in terms of moral standing.

In aggregate I probably agree but one thing I've wondered, especially in the last year as I started gardening during lockdown, is if that's really universally true. Large, long-lived plants - redwoods, oaks, saguaros, and so on - seem very close to the same niche in the plant kingdom humans occupy in the animal one. They exert significant energy to cultivate and modify their environment; they gather and store resources they do not immediately need; they change "behavioral" patterns significantly and cyclically over the course of their life; they maintain vast communication networks.

I have no doubt a pig "outranks" a mosquito. But I also suspect a redwood outranks a mosquito. The middle is all fuzzy though - where does my cucumber (which exhibits relatively complex reproductive behavior to attract pollinators, and expresses significant "wants" in terms of vining and leaf facing) lie in relation to mosquitos, or aphids, or bees?

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#248

Post by dariusj18 »

slothtrop wrote: post #60
difosfor wrote: post #59

I suppose it's slightly more animal friendly. On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. Working towards one final giant culling of all unnaturally engineered animals and just continuing on with a small numb…

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans.

Just to jump in with an additional point, vegans would never be ok with this. I believe you might be thinking vegetarians, which as a vegetarian, this is good news, and is enough for me.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#249

Post by bananabreakfast »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #231
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only logical endpoint is that humans should just off themselves so we don't participate past one cycle of reabsorption into the Earth's environment. That would obliterate all future human happiness. It doesn't stand up even under a cold utilitarian conception of morality.

I thought the whole premise was that we needed to limit the suffering of other living things that aren't humans at all costs, not about human happiness.

That's not the premise at all. That's a disingenuous strawman that anti-vegans would say to eachother about vegans to rile themselves up. It shows a total lack of understanding of what they're really about.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#250

Post by rsynnott »

dep_b wrote: post #10

It's very strange to kill male chicks, I'm eating capon instead of regular chicken nowadays because it has much more flavor and a better bite. If people would simply eat them more they also don't have to be killed. Castration is not super animal friendly though.

> If people would simply eat them more they also don't have to be killed.

... Unless you were contemplating eating them _live_, I'm not sure how that works.

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