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Watch live: Zuckerberg, Dorsey testify before Senate [video]

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Re: Watch live: Zuckerberg, Dorsey testify before Senate [video]

#241
post #119
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are actually good questions. There might be even more good questions; possibility too many. What's the best way to crowdsource such good questions and select a good sample and bring it to the attention of whoever organizes such hearings?

Write your senator. All questions come from somewhere.

But then you don't inspire other people to come up with better questions if the question is only known to the senator ('s team) until eventually revealed to the public once asked.

Re: Watch live: Zuckerberg, Dorsey testify before Senate [video]

#242
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I really don't envy them. They're just guys who built some websites trying to make money. I'm sure they never thought they would be at the center of national discussions about free speech, defending themselves against senators on TV, or being in the no-win situation of having the President use your platform to share obvious lies.

You must not remember Twitter revolutions [0]. When journalists were attributing a wave of protests ranging from Iran to Egypt to Syria (which were later come to be named Arab Spring) to the effect of social media, especially Twitter. Social media giants were hailed as saviours of humanity through spreading democracy. Social media executives were ecstatic: they were changing the world for the better and making a lot…

> The only thing that has changed is that while in their early years, their political effects were concentrated in the developing world in faraway lands, in recent years they have started affecting western politics as wel

This is somewhat disingeneous. Twitters efforts in the developing world were only to make sure everyone had access, and nobodys voice was squashed. It didnt bow down to dictatorial takedown requests, and allowed dissenters voices to be heard, thus enabling the revolutions that followed.

The game they are playing now is arbitrating content, and putting labels on things to guide the narrative. Regardless if they are right or not, as they are in the case with Trump its a very, very different game.

Re: Watch live: Zuckerberg, Dorsey testify before Senate [video]

#243
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Official sources called this election differently" is the exact message I'm discussing (the message then refers to the AP and NBC) 1. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Em8ByxrXMAEN_Mi?format=jpg 2. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Em8By4-XcAIUY2D?format=jpg

I think Twitter changed the wording on that slightly to address these concerns. It's now, I believe, the ones I mentioned.

I checked and you're right, they've fixed it. Thanks!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnGSHiCWEAcwHse?format=png

Re: Watch live: Zuckerberg, Dorsey testify before Senate [video]

#244
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State recounts finish December 8. The Electoral College meets December 14. The Electoral College determines the winner. Any 'result' before the EC determines the winner is a preliminary result.

Recounts do not change results with something like 99% probability, particularly results with large enough margins like these. Therefore, it is reasonable to determine with high probability what the final electoral results will be from the "preliminary" count of votes. Again, not only are the margins within each individual state large enough to make it improbable to overturn, the margins of the predicted electoral vo…

I agree with every single point in your first paragraph.

But it's dangerous to present the media as being an official source of election results.

Re: Watch live: Zuckerberg, Dorsey testify before Senate [video]

#245
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I, as a user of social media, want to belong to a community that removes misinformation around the election, government shouldn't ban such a platform from allowing to exist (since without 230, You continue to indicate that you haven't actually listened to the arguments made. The Republican argument is not about whether or not a company can censor information on their platform. In no way is it about the government'…

If your concerns were truly about "everyday people" having a day in court, then it wouldn't be conditional upon these platforms not adopting your preferred speech policies. Please explain why my woodworking community should be responsible for a user libeling another user about, say, their professional woodwork just because the forum has a "no politics" rule, for example. Or even a "politics sure but no Nazis" rule. W…

Your scenarios depend upon narrowly assumed premises that fail as soon as you put real people in the mix. Sure, if we lived in a perfect world where your woodworking moderators knew for a fact when libel was taking place or Nazis were posting - then we could all rest easily because they would de facto be preventing harm, not causing it.

But that's not the way it works. In reality, moderators don't know legal libel when they see it to the point that they should be automatically indemnified. We see in day-to-day life that not everyone who is accused of being a Nazi or a racist is one in fact. Sometime the accusation of being a Nazi is itself the libel, and if your woodworking moderators are participating in the perpetuation of that libel; then they should be held to account.

If your woodworking community, through moderation, decides to weigh in on user comments through moderation, badging, or editing; then it should be liable for any libel that it amplifies through its policies. If a person can show actual damage from those policies in court, then why should your woodworking community get a pass?

Re: Watch live: Zuckerberg, Dorsey testify before Senate [video]

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must not remember Twitter revolutions [0]. When journalists were attributing a wave of protests ranging from Iran to Egypt to Syria (which were later come to be named Arab Spring) to the effect of social media, especially Twitter. Social media giants were hailed as saviours of humanity through spreading democracy. Social media executives were ecstatic: they were changing the world for the better and making a lot…

> The only thing that has changed is that while in their early years, their political effects were concentrated in the developing world in faraway lands, in recent years they have started affecting western politics as wel This is somewhat disingeneous. Twitters efforts in the developing world were only to make sure everyone had access, and nobodys voice was squashed. It didnt bow down to dictatorial takedown requests…

Right now there are two criticisms of Twitter and Facebook et al:

1) That they are arbitrating content, like what you mentioned with Trump

2) That they are not arbitrating content enough, giving platform to climate change denialism, conspiracy theories, far right radicalization, and genocide [0].

So sure, they can return to their original stance and censor nobody. I don't think people would be too happy with them when the world gets more genocide-y and violent protests break out fuelled by conspiracy theories regarding the health of the elections.

So to recap: moderating and not moderating content on their platforms are both subject to serious criticisms. Right now, social media companies are trying to strike a balance, but the result is that they are angering both sides. If they choose a side (all content is allowed / we will moderate the content as closely as HN is moderated), they other side will be angrier at them. They were happy not doing moderation when the negative impacts were only affecting non-western countries, but now that it is also affecting western countries, they are more clearly seeing the negative sides and they have moved more to the middle.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...

Re: Watch live: Zuckerberg, Dorsey testify before Senate [video]

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious what other people think the informational value of these hearings are. It seems like it is either posturing and grandstanding, or reasonable questions to which evasive or non-answers are given. I agree with you. They need to get the cameras out of congress. Everyone involved in these hearings is mining them for clips for their campaign ads and it's sickening.

Yes let's support them having only invisible political machinations so we can all get even further away from any truth that may exist.

Audio? Text? There are ways to keep it transparent while taking away virality.

Re: Watch live: Zuckerberg, Dorsey testify before Senate [video]

#248
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your concerns were truly about "everyday people" having a day in court, then it wouldn't be conditional upon these platforms not adopting your preferred speech policies. Please explain why my woodworking community should be responsible for a user libeling another user about, say, their professional woodwork just because the forum has a "no politics" rule, for example. Or even a "politics sure but no Nazis" rule. W…

Your scenarios depend upon narrowly assumed premises that fail as soon as you put real people in the mix. Sure, if we lived in a perfect world where your woodworking moderators knew for a fact when libel was taking place or Nazis were posting - then we could all rest easily because they would de facto be preventing harm, not causing it. But that's not the way it works. In reality, moderators don't know legal libel wh…

I agree, woodworking moderators wouldn't possibly know legal libel when they see it. Nor would any platform. But that's why every forum, website, blog, social media platform, whatever, would then have to adopt your preferred speech policy. Which, of course, is your intent.

I think the key dishonesty in your comment, whether you're aware of it or not, is this idea that "moderation, badging, or editing" is what would be "amplifying" libel. What sense does that make? How does removing a post that, say, promotes the KKK in a woodworking forum have anything to do with a user possibly-falsely claiming in the public forum that "Joe's Tables and Chairs" doesn't use walnut like they claim?

It's a bizarre claim you're making to justify tremendous government overreach in forcing tiny forums and a billion other websites like it on the web to adopt your preferred speech policies.

Edit: And by the way, I'm being very generous with my examples. For one, I'm assuming you're okay with removing ILLEGAL content, such as child porn, without the website owners being subject to lawsuits for libel and other things -- since they're required to remove those things regardless of 230. But also, what about very legal porn? Or what if a Nintendo Switch game forum removes somebody who posts "first!" as a reply to every thread?

If I'm misreading you, and your preferred policy is instead that these websites should be responsible for claims THEY make -- such as, if the owners call a user a Nazi -- well that's already CURRENT LAW! 230 doesn't grant protection there now. But they're not calling people Nazis -- also, I don't think that lawsuit would go far for reasons based in libel law -- so this never comes up. If you're saying they're "implying" people are Nazi's simply by removing content based on hate speech policies, again, 230 doesn't really apply there. It'd still fail under our libel laws, and any suit would fail on the merits.

Now, maybe you want to rewrite libel laws, too! That'd be a big government approach to even FURTHER regulate free speech, but it'd be difficult to write a law that made it possible to be sued just for implying somebody is a Nazi for something they wrote. Certainly it wouldn't pass Constitutional muster, so you'd have to rewrite the Constitution, too. The only Justice who has shown any openness to re-interpreting libel laws to further restrict speech is Justice Thomas and you'd have to go FAR beyond what he's called for.

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