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So you've made a mistake and it's public

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Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#241

Post by api_or_ipa »

nfoz wrote: post #210
ethbr0 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To preface, we're talking about people with jackasses-tendencies here. Normal, well-adjusted people don't like to make their colleagues feel bad. But as you say, it's also been my experience that apology and... "ownership"(?) are two very different things in American (Southern) culture. "I'm sorry I did X" seems to signal weakness and invite criticism, if people are already so inclined. "I did X. It wasn't the best a…

As a Canadian, I was quick to realize that the mere word "sorry" has a different meaning to some people down south. In Canada I'll just say it casually to mean a polite "hope I'm not troubling you" or "sorry that happened to you", and never thought of it as immediately declaring responsibility let alone fragility. But in the US, I've been pounced on for a casual use of that word, as if I'd announced failure and that…

As a Canadian in a happy relationship with an American, we quickly realised the difference that you've pointed out. We also realised that I had a tinge of the stereotypical Canadian "sooorry" sound, so we ran with it. If it's a situation where one of us intends to express remorse for a situation occurring, we slightly intonate towards the "o" sound, and for situations where we're accepting blame, we edge towards the American "sarry" (again, over emphasized to get the point across). It's subtle, but it's worked well for us.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#242

Post by pushrax »

OJFord wrote: post #219
core-questions wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, you're missing out on the other critical half of the 'sorry'. You step on my foot. I look at you, and say "sorry", and pull my foot away. You abashedly also "sorry" and we move on. Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?" and your reply is "Sorry, yes, I did do that, didn't mean to, apologies". Then the problem is solved and we move…

> Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?" At least in the UK, that's not the full sentence, or it could be, but only with a change in tone ('SOrrY?!') - to me it's more like 'Oops my foot was in your way I think, so sorry'. (Said of course before you have a chance to think 'no hang on, I wasn't in the way, you weren't looking, this isn't my fault'…

Your interpretation is normal in Canada too.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#243

Post by textgel »

nicoburns wrote: post #159
textgel wrote: post #127

I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all. For example. Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the…

I consider myself a progressive and honestly I think you have a point. I think it comes from a good place (it's a reaction to a history of things simply being brushed off, ignored and not addressed), but it's ultimately not a good way of dealing things. I think the happy medium is where people are held accountable for their actions (ideally apologising for them if they really have done something wrong, which often ti…

With a bit of luck it does seem some of the more reasoned voices are winning out, at least in some of the areas I've seen, and rationally I know this stuff didn't appear out of thin air so time will tell but I'm hoping to see a more back-to-the-roots approach continue to grow.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#244

Post by aaron695 »

> that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your mistake caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding);

No.

You are allowed to make mistakes. You don't have to default to sorry.

This is allowing the mob to own you. To an extent they do, so maybe to have to let them bully you. But try and resist.

Sometimes you will be sorry and sometimes pretending to be sorry will get you something you want. But it should be your choice.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#246

Post by eplanit »

ggm wrote: post #90

The form of words of an apology is extremely important. The worst form (in my personal opinion) is the qualified apology as in IF I have offended I apologize . It questions the need, it implies that its open to doubt. I apologize unreservedly is far better.

The doubt is sometimes valid, as it might not seem (or in fact be) reasonable for the offended party to be offended. If person A says something that person B takes offense at, but person A had no intention of being offensive, _and_ it is not obvious (or rational) why B is offended, then it makes sense to offer "if what I said offended you, I apologize". That's polite and considerate.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#247

Post by textgel »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #238
textgel wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A common tactic seen by progressives during attacks on their victims is to hype up the crime by either making vague claims such as that they "are pretty messed up" and hoping that regular people apply their reasonable measure of "pretty messed up"; to outright lies where they equate the commited heresy with an actual real world wrong. One charming example is this one of Morgan Freeman during the metoo saga where he w…

...and then what happened to Morgan Freeman? I don't know anything about the alleged situation, but pretty sure he moved on with his life and is still wealthy and largely beloved.

He was okay because...

1) He was a beloved actor with a lot of public support.

2) His attempted character assassination was recorded on film and so any stories of how the victim was "traumatised" by his "sexual harassment" not only were publicly shown to be lies but they added to a more public recognition of my earlier point that progressives believe it is okay to lie about what someone has done in the interests of destroying someone they want gone.

3) His attack happened late in the metoo saga when people had been pointing out the flaws in the "believe all women" view; after the aziz answari situation failed to hold up to public scrutiny etc but before the Joe Bidden situation resulted in "believe all women" having "never happened".

Fundamentally the Morgan Freeman story demonstrates a number of things about progressive belief; their views on what constitutes sin is ridiculous in the eyes of anyone with basic common sense, they believe ends-justify-the-means and they are willing to carry out those means.

He was okay, others weren't.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#248

Post by projectileboy »

ethbr0 wrote: post #187
DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

To preface, we're talking about people with jackasses-tendencies here. Normal, well-adjusted people don't like to make their colleagues feel bad. But as you say, it's also been my experience that apology and... "ownership"(?) are two very different things in American (Southern) culture. "I'm sorry I did X" seems to signal weakness and invite criticism, if people are already so inclined. "I did X. It wasn't the best a…

America is something of a bully culture, unfortunately. They tend to win and be glorified.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#249

Post by harryf »

Sorry but this is utter bullshit. In the toxic melting pot that is today’s public opinion, the lesson learned is never admit you’re wrong EVER. The moment you publicly express remorse you are done. The master of this is Ricky Gervais eg https://youtu.be/uEawbnXaIDs

No one will care of remember whether you found some way to apologize. The only thing groupthink will remember is whether you could be intimidated or not. If you can’t be intimidated groupthink will quickly grow bored of you.

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