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Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

numfocus.org

241–250 of 288 posts

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The task of making rules like that is never ending. This concept reminds me of when the head of GM rewrote their dress code. It went from several pages down to two words: "dress appropriately". What that means actually depends on context - who are you meeting with and what kind of work is going on. She realized that manager who needed a manual to figure that out had bigger problems.

Software developers, who are intimately familiar with the idea that software needs constant attention and maintenance, seem to often balk at the idea that communities also need constant attention and maintenance. The idea that a code of conduct is "never ending" does not seem like a bad thing to me. As an example, the mozilla community participation guidelines (currently at version 3.1) are quite short and readable a…

>> The idea that a code of conduct is "never ending" does not seem like a bad thing to me.

So another area where that type of thing can happen is in union negotiations. Unions in the US started out fighting for basic decent treatment - reasonable hours and pay, safer working conditions, etc... Some years ago I was in a manufacturing plant and the break (lunch) room had a big television in it. Turns out the union had demanded the TV in their most recent contract. Someone I was speaking to berated the union "those idiots demand a TV, don't they have real concerns?" I realized the problem is that the adversarial nature had grown so bad - probably on both sides - that nothing could be had without a negotiation and putting it in writing. That goes for work from the union: "that's not my job" or worse - "you're getting written up for doing something that's someone else's job" to the management "no we're not giving you anything we don't have to by contract". Once you start writing things down and trying to nit-pick it can lead to a terrible place where nothing is easy for anyone.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst thing is when nobody is actually offended or hurt, and someone says your behavior could be considered offensive or insulting or whatever and takes action based on that. That's just someone wanting to exert their power for the wrong reasons.

You don't get to be the arbiter of who is "actually offended." I agree that there are people who take any amount of power and want to expert it for the wrong reasons, but that isn't an indictment against CoCs, it's an indictment of bad behavior.

>> You don't get to be the arbiter of who is "actually offended.

That is exactly my point. Some committee member doesn't get to say "that may be offensive to someone" either. They need to wait until someone actually reports being offended.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#243

From the way this non-apology is written, these NumFocus people seem very full of themselves and their organization. What are their credentials and achievements? Okay, they sponsor existing projects and then take credit for them, calling them "our open source tools" which are used by everyone "from Netflix to NASA" to "solve the most challenging problems". Where is the money coming from? Their site makes deceptive cl…

> Okay, they sponsor existing projects and then take credit for them [...] I don't see any references to NumFOCUS in the NumPy Wikipedia page. The NumPy homepage makes absolutely no reference to NumFOCUS at all.

I have no connection to any of these projects but some very basic browsing on these sites refutes your assertions. You're using questionable criteria to make dubious claims. NumFOCUS was founded by the primary creators of many of these tools specifically to support them; it's not some unaffiliated third-party trying to take credit.

> NumPy is a Sponsored Project of NumFOCUS, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit charity in the United States. NumFOCUS provides NumPy with fiscal, legal, and administrative support to help ensure the health and sustainability of the project.

https://numpy.org/about/

> By 2010, a critical mass of projects were in need of a more formal structure to provide support and help to organize the community. [...] Travis Oliphant (author of NumPy), Fernando Pérez (author of IPython), Perry Greenfield (author of Numarray and Astropy), John Hunter (author of Matplotlib), Jarrod Millman (release manager for SciPy), and Anthony Scopatz (who came up with the name “NumFOCUS”) became the founding board of NumFOCUS.

https://numfocus.org/history

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#244
post #124
post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

I used to have feelings similar to yours, and then I started playing Valorant with my wife. The amount of vitriol she gets simply for being a woman is staggering. I had no idea because I didn't come across women in tactical shooters very often, and I wasn't a jackass to them when I did. But it's something like every other game that someone is ridiculously rude to her because she's a woman. This is in addition to all…

Valorant has a CoC. And yet, your wife suffered horrible toxicity and harassment in Valorant. This doesn't sound like their CoC was successful in curbing abuse.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll try to refine your argument a bit: codes of conduct have tended to become a distraction because of the sudden onslaught of such from a specific, highly politicised group of people who have used the opportunity to try to enforce their way of looking at the world upon others by getting their 'code of conduct' - which reads like a political pamphlet - adopted by a number of high-visibility projects. Having a code o…

> don't be a jerk I disagree. This whole situation with Jeremy is because of vague rules just like this. If I tell you that you are "wrong", you might consider me to be "jerk" and we can do this whole song and dance. What communities are trying to police and prevent is outright sexism, racism, etc. For that, being explicit is better than just offering that someone is "being a jerk".

Nope, being wrong is not being a jerk, this used to be common sense and is what we need to go back to. Feel free to change the wording on the proposed CoC from don't be a jerk to don't be an asshole or something similar, the end result should still be the same: most people will understand what is meant. Some people won't but that can not be helped. The more elaborate the code, the more it will be used for other purposes, Fewer words is also possible but even in the total absence of a code of conduct most communities - 4chan et al excluded - will still have the unspoken assumption to not be a jerk. Having this encoded in a code of conduct at least makes sure those other, politically motivated 'codes' do not get a foothold.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#246
post #3

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but: I'm against code of conducts because they're worse than the problems they try to solve. edit: In my opinion, code of conducts become a distraction and a cause for worry to anyone contributing to these projects because someone inevitably gets their feelings hurt and points to some well-intentioned rule in the CoC to get the 'offender' shamed/removed even if no harm was intende…

Yet you are here, on HN, a forum with a code of conduct (they're called guidelines but the commenting rules constitute a CoC), and this CoC is enforced firmly. I don't mean this in a snarky "get outta here" way, but: why are you here? Why not any other forum, tech-related or otherwise? Why not 4chan? Whatever the reason is, is the answer not quite likely to be at least in part made possible by the CoC and its strict…

You treat it like a coincidence that HN guidelines are called "guidelines" instead of "Code of Conduct". I don't think it's a coincidence. I think there's a certain kind of ethos behind behind any "Code of Conduct" process, and that ethos is not present on HN. And I'm really happy about that. I think HN moderation is amazing and it allows for conversations that you couldn't have anywhere else on the web.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#247
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to have feelings similar to yours, and then I started playing Valorant with my wife. The amount of vitriol she gets simply for being a woman is staggering. I had no idea because I didn't come across women in tactical shooters very often, and I wasn't a jackass to them when I did. But it's something like every other game that someone is ridiculously rude to her because she's a woman. This is in addition to all…

Valorant has a CoC. And yet, your wife suffered horrible toxicity and harassment in Valorant. This doesn't sound like their CoC was successful in curbing abuse.

You think it'd be better if Riot just didn't say anything about it?

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#248
post #226
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems nitpicky. Saying "we apologize" multiple times is the same as "we're sorry". They've said their communications were in error in the way they described the complaints, the status of the investigation, and their charged language. They've kicked the whole thing up to the responsible organizational Board of Directors for more action - which is to say, completely removed the group that made the errors from next…

Saying "we apologize" multiple times is the same as "we're sorry". The difference is that the first indicates that "we" want you to feel better, while the second indicates empathy. When I'm on the receiving end, my gut reaction is almost exactly opposite. Second, their claim is that this is a miscommunication appears to be a CYA lie. The recipient has shared sufficient details of what actually happened that either he…

I maintain that "we apologize" and "we are sorry" are identical in meaning, except to those straining to be ungenerous, always demanding "just a bit more" prostration than was offered.

Your compact "good apology" wording is fine, too!

But if they'd used that, exactly, plenty of people would still be hair-splitting & demanding more – maybe even you, since even your wording doesn't do most of the things your first post above wanted!

It also fails to 'acknowledge' the specific "list of things" you wanted to see. It also offers nothing more "in amends" than they already offered. It also suggests no "consequences" for those who erred. Your added cheap-but-emotionally-performative intensifier words – "we deeply regret the pain and anguish" – are also viewed as "meaningless hollow BS" by many.

See how easy it is to nitpick tone?

The social function of apologies also requires gracious acceptance of actual admissions of error.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#249
post #243

From the way this non-apology is written, these NumFocus people seem very full of themselves and their organization. What are their credentials and achievements? Okay, they sponsor existing projects and then take credit for them, calling them "our open source tools" which are used by everyone "from Netflix to NASA" to "solve the most challenging problems". Where is the money coming from? Their site makes deceptive cl…

> Okay, they sponsor existing projects and then take credit for them [...] I don't see any references to NumFOCUS in the NumPy Wikipedia page. The NumPy homepage makes absolutely no reference to NumFOCUS at all. I have no connection to any of these projects but some very basic browsing on these sites refutes your assertions. You're using questionable criteria to make dubious claims. NumFOCUS was founded by the primar…

You got me. The author of NumPy, Travis Oliphant, is still with the organization, as is Fernando Pérez. Mostly, it consists of other people, though.

Re: Public Apology to Jeremy Howard

#250
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valorant has a CoC. And yet, your wife suffered horrible toxicity and harassment in Valorant. This doesn't sound like their CoC was successful in curbing abuse.

You think it'd be better if Riot just didn't say anything about it?

Yes. The amount of abuse would be the same, but there would be one less hammer for zealots to attack heretics with.
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