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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#241

Post by leto_ii »

dpc_pw wrote: post #27
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries.

> Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders. What's good for shareholders is also good for a lot of tech employees.

> Also, barriers to entry in software are almost 0. If you can't get someone to treat you well, you can have your own software company paying your bills in 6 months, or VCs funding your startup.

Points 1 and 3 apply, perhaps, to Silicon Valley, but not as much in the rest of the world. I currently work in the Netherlands - there are plenty of jobs and the pay can be good, but at the end of the day you're just another worker. The disparity in negotiating power is still enormous.

Point 2 is mostly not that relevant (outside of SV). Even if you get some equity, it will be peanuts. I worked at a company that had a very successful IPO. We all got a few stock options, enough to make a few tens of thousands of euros if you sold them at the right time. The actual shareholders (the ones with decision power) made from tens of millions to billions. The disparity is enormous.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#242

Post by LatteLazy »

leto_ii wrote: post #238
LatteLazy wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always done well by being judged and rewarded as an individual. I've been on teams with people who were lazy or entitled or just bad at their job and didn't care enough to change. I don't want negotiate as a block with those people because if get less of I did. And frankly, I'd rather not work with them at all, because they're just a pain in the arse to deal with. I think unions make sense when every worker is b…

> Right now, my leverage is "give me my bonus or I'll go elsewhere and the only other guy on this team can't code or troubleshoot for shit and takes every nfl game day off sick" This attitude to me seems terribly short-sighted. Currently tech workers are privileged and can live with the illusion that they are not replaceable. The nature of capitalism however is to instrumentalize human beings and reduce them to what…

Maybe, but you're asking me to give up a lot of money now on the off chance I might get something back in the future. And I don't plan to be at any employer more than a few years anyway.

Also, if the whole industry is being offshored or replaced with AI, the union won't be any use as they'll have no leverage either...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#243

Post by greggman3 »

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

This is what you'll get with unions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be...

My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention center"

I know others who have add similar experiences in the aerospace industry where responsibilities were divided up and person A is not allowed do any work outside of their designated job.

For example, your job is to write UX features, some else's job is to unit tests. You're not allowed to write unit tests.

Why I would I want that?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#244

Post by twblalock »

onion2k wrote: post #236
twblalock wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I have to split $2,000,000 between you and me, but you don't know how much money there is, then you might be happy with me giving you $400,000. That's $400,000 you didn't have before. Hell yeah, $400k! That's loads. The fact we're both going away happy doesn't make it right though. There's a big disparity there. If you found out that I'd kept 4* what you got you'd have every reason to be pissed about it. Do you…

Do you honestly believe that every penny a company makes ought to be given to its employees? I didn't suggest anything of the sort. I said that maybe companies are paying their employees much less than they could, and that maybe employees aren't getting a good deal despite wages being high relative to other industries. I didn't say that all of the value an employee generates should go to that employee - just maybe it…

> "Market rate" is basically the median negotiated salary for similar roles.

Ok, then most FAANG engineers are far above the market rate. If they unionized they would probably lose money when the union tries to level everyone out.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#245

Post by leto_ii »

LatteLazy wrote: post #242
leto_ii wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now, my leverage is "give me my bonus or I'll go elsewhere and the only other guy on this team can't code or troubleshoot for shit and takes every nfl game day off sick" This attitude to me seems terribly short-sighted. Currently tech workers are privileged and can live with the illusion that they are not replaceable. The nature of capitalism however is to instrumentalize human beings and reduce them to what…

Maybe, but you're asking me to give up a lot of money now on the off chance I might get something back in the future. And I don't plan to be at any employer more than a few years anyway. Also, if the whole industry is being offshored or replaced with AI, the union won't be any use as they'll have no leverage either...

Not saying that the whole industry will be replaced, just that tech stacks might change, paradigms might change (see going from mainframes to PCs) etc. It would suck to find yourself unemployable in your mid-50's, let's say. It also kind of sucks to always have to keep up with the newest trends - perhaps at some point in your life you would actually want to do smth else than program all the time.

In a world of atomized workers, even the ones who can run fast on the treadmill are only good as long as they can run fast. If the treadmill changes or they get tired they're out.

Unions help because they have political power. They can make it so that societies are also about people, not just about efficient allocation of capital.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#247

Post by LatteLazy »

leto_ii wrote: post #245
LatteLazy wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but you're asking me to give up a lot of money now on the off chance I might get something back in the future. And I don't plan to be at any employer more than a few years anyway. Also, if the whole industry is being offshored or replaced with AI, the union won't be any use as they'll have no leverage either...

Not saying that the whole industry will be replaced, just that tech stacks might change, paradigms might change (see going from mainframes to PCs) etc. It would suck to find yourself unemployable in your mid-50's, let's say. It also kind of sucks to always have to keep up with the newest trends - perhaps at some point in your life you would actually want to do smth else than program all the time. In a world of atomiz…

I think the political power argument is both the best and worst reason for union membership: In my opinion, democracy is basically dead unless you can raise a lot of cash and use it to force your issues.

So you're either disenfranchised or you're a billionaire or you're part of a group like a union that can raise cash and use it for things you care about. That's a good argument to be in a union.

Or it would be, except (apart from a few specialist groups like police unions) unions seem to be amazingly bad at actually doing this. We haven't had pro-worker legislation in decades as far as I can tell. I don't know why unions are so bad at this as (at least IMHO) it seems like a core responsibility AND a major selling point. But they are. We've seen fewer and fewer rights for workers, higher taxes for working people, the removal of benefits for working people, higher student loans, sky high house prices, you name it.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#248

Post by onion2k »

twblalock wrote: post #244
onion2k wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe that every penny a company makes ought to be given to its employees? I didn't suggest anything of the sort. I said that maybe companies are paying their employees much less than they could, and that maybe employees aren't getting a good deal despite wages being high relative to other industries. I didn't say that all of the value an employee generates should go to that employee - just maybe it…

> "Market rate" is basically the median negotiated salary for similar roles. Ok, then most FAANG engineers are far above the market rate. If they unionized they would probably lose money when the union tries to level everyone out.

This is another problem with using the market rate to drive salary expectations. Roles aren't the same between companies even if titles or grades are. Basing a salary on what other companies pay "Developer L5" assumes that "Developer L5" is the same job everywhere, and it really isn't.

We all know people at companies that give devs 'lesser' titles (and lower wages) and then expect the person to do the work of the higher title role.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#249

Post by username90 »

anthuswilliams wrote: post #198
username90 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meritocracy starting out as leftist satire doesn't mean the concept doesn't have merit.

Yes, it does. Unless its defenders have shown good reasons as to why the points raised by the satirists are inapplicable. Which they haven't. The assignation of "quality" in people is a corrupt and folkloric reflection of the preferences of those in power, and that phenomenon is becoming ever more pronounced as industries consolidate.

The fact that a person can just study programming on their free time for a few years and then get a job paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year is proof that at least in some cases meritocracy works. All you need is proof that you are great at programming, doesn't have to know anyone or have any kind of prestigious background to do it.

That is what I did. I studied programming for a bit, started getting among the top in online programming competitions, applied to Google and got a really high salary. Anyone who is intelligent enough can do it if they have a computer with internet access.

People sometimes counter with something along the lines of:

> Just because you could do it doesn't mean others can do it, you are just an exception!

Yeah, exactly, other people are dumb so they can't become among the best of the world in these competitions within a year. If they could they would easily get similar jobs as I did though, there was no luck or privilege in what I did just talent. So the problem isn't that meritocracy doesn't work but that merit for these tech jobs is so unevenly distributed.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#250

Post by telesilla »

greggman3 wrote: post #243
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

Unions can also offer goods things like group bargaining, healthcare and moral support such as SAG/AFTRA and other Hollywood-style guilds. The only downside is you can't do cheap work on the side, but that benefits those who choose not to or cannot join these guilds.
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