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Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

arstechnica.com

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Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#241

Post by exDM69 »

jimbokun wrote: post #114
CWuestefeld wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody in tech, and especially information technology, should be able to find something fascinating in F1. Winning an F1 race requires a huge amount of data processing, both for the operation of the race car itself, as well as for the simulations of race strategy in realtime. The teams bring enormous amounts of equipment to each race. Obviously a lot of that equipment is wrenches, screwdrivers, and related machinery…

Any good books on F1 technology, data processing or otherwise?

Try Adrian Newey's ghost written memoir "How to Build a Car". It's not a deep dive into technological tidbits, but has got some interesting details about the technology and the development of his cars.

To those not familiar, Adrian Newey, currently at Red Bull Racing, is the most successful race car designer by almost any metric. His first championship winning cars were designed in the 1980s (for American racing series), and he's built championship winning cars for Williams, McLaren and Red Bull.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#242

Post by wastedhours »

alexb7c4 wrote: post #120
GhostVII wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there problem is that it's just boring to watch because they are so fast - it is extremely hard to pass without hacks like DRS, which makes F1 races really boring to watch. And I'm sure most fans would much rather switch back to the v10 engines even though they are more "obsolete", a conventional powertrain doesn't make them any more boring to watch (it actually makes them more exciting imo). And if battery t…

Any suggestions of racing series more interesting than F1? I tried to watch Blancpain, Super GT, IMSA, Le Mans - all of them seem to have almost non-existent level of overtaking (even worse than in F1 imho)

Standard season of WEC tends to have more overtaking than Le Mans itself. For interest rather than overtaking, WRC is obviously well up there. And if you really want no-holds barred overtaking, anything on the BTCC schedule should be well up there (well, except F4 and oddly, the Porsche Carrera Cup) - Ginetta Juniors is a particular highlight.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#243

Post by jjav »

W-Stool wrote: post #84

Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector time…

> Can't just take the car out to the track and run it between races when you want.

Yes, this has completely ruined the sport. My life used to revolved around F1 starting from the late 80s (did not miss a single race in 25 years), but two years ago I gave up and have not watched the past two seasons.

With rules preventing engine and car development once Mercedes locked in the advantage, it's game over. Sure F1 has had plenty of dominant teams for short time windows but it was engineering-driven and could (and was) overcome by better engineering by other teams. Now that the advantage is locked in by the rules, there is no hope.

To me there's no entertainment value whatsoever in watching Mercedes lap a second faster than everyone year after year. Let's watch some paint dry instead.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#244

Post by elorant »

elcomet wrote: post #215
DC-3 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team. When the sport was awash with tobacco money about 15 years ago, the big teams all had an entire testing team, completely divorced from their race team, which would spend most days of the year simply hammering around the racetracks of Europe, at astronomical expense. Such things are illegal now because if they…

I don't understand why it would kill the sport, could you explain?

Because smaller teams could not afford it. Thus you'd end-up with a handful of teams competing which would probably translate to half the cars you see on track now. Diversity in any sport is what brings in fans and sponsors. Three to four big names competing with each other with no one else on sight could kill F1, or any sport for that matter.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#245

Post by remus »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #224
MHordecki wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they have yearly CPU instruction limits This sounded too ridiculous to me, so I started digging. Lo and behold, [1]. Appendix 8, sections 2 and 3. The entire thing is a fun read, with pearls such as: in the case of an Intel CPU with either the Sandybridge or Ivybridge chipset where the competitor chooses not to exploit the AVX feature; the competitor must explicitly declare and be able to demonstrate that they are…

What stops them from just running simulations at CPUs outside the organization's control? It's not like an engineer can't go to their home computer, open a terminal and SSH to a server, which could be in the opposite corner of the world. Even if all official simulations must be logged, which I suppose will also appear in the rules, running a few rogue simulations and looking at the output will give big hints about wh…

Same thing that stops them breaking any of the other rules I guess. Fines, race bans, points deductions etc. if it's found out.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#246

Post by awongh »

manojlds wrote: post #192
gcatalfamo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then Mercedes cheated THIS year and nothing happened. Ferrari simply lost the politics game.

If you are talking of DAS - they spoke with FIA through development process and was ok'ed. And DAS is made illegal from next year. Are you saying Ferrari worked with FIA for their sensor cheat last year as well? BTW, none of us on the outside even know what they even cheated on and what the agreement is etc. The theory is that FIA knows there was cheating with the sensors but doesn't have the necessary evidence to pr…

To me this is the main problem with F1 as a sport. In football and basketball you can see most of the important strategy play out on the field.

In F1 you are always left guessing which hidden aspect of the engineering is affecting the outcome of the race.

Making everything open source wouldn’t change anything, but at least from a fan perspective you could really delve into those cool engineering bits. Right now we are left guessing at what the Ferrari engine was doing and how it worked.

The things that are actually resulting in the wins/losses are not even not visible, they are secret! What other sport is like that?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#247

Post by exDM69 »

TylerE wrote: post #157
serf wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F1 technology is a lot more than just power-trains, I wish people would understand that better. Fuel chemistry, aerodynamics, functional simulation, driver ergonomics, safety dynamics, tire chemistry, metallurgy, analytics, data recording, composites, suspension, real-time telemetry and communication, digital systems management.. the list goes on forever. If the device/technique/procedure wasn't invented by F1, it wa…

Really the aero and suspension is more impressive than the engine. You could stick a commodity pushrod V8 in there and make 1000hp easy with a bolt on turbo and run the same laptimes. Nothing else on earth is close to the aero.

> You could stick a commodity pushrod V8 in there and make 1000hp easy with a bolt on turbo and run the same laptimes.

Here's the issue: the engine manufacturers are also one of the most important financial sponsors of the sport. You'd need to convince Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault to build obsolete engines and put down a big bag of money.

And besides, you won't be able to fit a big V8 engine under the bodywork of a current-gen F1 car with the narrow coke bottle shape at the rear.

The engines are also pretty damn impressive, running at 50%+ thermal efficiency. Ye olde pushrod V8 would run out of fuel at half race distance with current fuel regulations.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#248

Post by wastedhours »

zizee wrote: post #172
snuxoll wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FIA, seeing as they are the main sanctioning body for Motorsport worldwide outside of America-centric series like NASCAR and Indycar.

What are the implications of that exactly?

Unless F1 and FE merge, F1 cannot become fully electric until the end of the exclusivity period. It's a gamble by F1 that the world (and more specifically, the teams and manufacturers involved) won't be ready for a full-electric pinnacle series by 2039 (i.e. speed and name recognition parity).

All F1 teams have signed the Concorde Agreement until 2025 - which means they're "committed" in one sense or another. I don't think FE will be in a position to attract Mercedes and Renault fully by 2025 (the two mass-market manufacturers who'll be most heavily influenced by the move to fully electric, with toes already in the waters in FE).

The late 2020s will be a lot of political posturing, and should FE look to be attracting F1 backmarkers with promises of cheaper overheads, more future-relevant tech and decent audiences in addition to manufacturers, 2030-2039 will be interesting as heck.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#249

Post by manojlds »

awongh wrote: post #246
manojlds wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are talking of DAS - they spoke with FIA through development process and was ok'ed. And DAS is made illegal from next year. Are you saying Ferrari worked with FIA for their sensor cheat last year as well? BTW, none of us on the outside even know what they even cheated on and what the agreement is etc. The theory is that FIA knows there was cheating with the sensors but doesn't have the necessary evidence to pr…

To me this is the main problem with F1 as a sport. In football and basketball you can see most of the important strategy play out on the field. In F1 you are always left guessing which hidden aspect of the engineering is affecting the outcome of the race. Making everything open source wouldn’t change anything, but at least from a fan perspective you could really delve into those cool engineering bits. Right now we ar…

They are not really secret, there is specualtion, there is copying and eventually there is details.

The whole thing came to this end because RedBull guessed what Ferrari were doing.

Perhaps that is why I love F1 over any other sport. I love the technical aspects, the need to push into gray area etc.

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