California issues first rolling blackouts since 2001 • Hacker News Board

Re: California issues first rolling blackouts since 2001

#241

Post by bhupy » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 12:49 PM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #238

bhupy wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just not true, in practice, though. Laws are written by legislators who ultimately need to win the confidence of their constituents. No amount of money will install a representative who cannot win a democratic election. We’ve seen this play out time and time again. Jeff Bezos’ own district in Washington State is represented by a socialist. Hillary Clinton outspent Donald Trump by 2x in the 2016 election, and s…

I didn't say anything about election funding. Having money to hire lobbyists lets people influence legislation to their benefit.[1] Big businesses can demand larger tax breaks by playing cities off each other.[2] These are just two ways in which more money translates into more influence. 1. https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/0... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_HQ2#Criticism_and_oppos.…

> Having money to hire lobbyists lets people influence legislation to their benefit.

Sure, but ultimately the legislators are accountable to the voters, not the lobbyists. Most voters elect the candidate they think is most likely to represent their interests. Sometimes lobbyists influence legislators in ways that align with the interests of the legislator’s constituents, which is a feature and not a bug. When lobbyists influence legislators in ways that contradict with the interests of the legislator’s constituents, the incumbent is unseated — this isn’t uncommon.

> Big businesses can demand larger tax breaks by playing cities off each other

1. Competition among cities is what allows us to get the lowest possible tax for the highest amount of benefit. This doesn’t just happen with businesses, this also happens with individual taxpayers. This is why cities and states hesitate to raise taxes lest their citizens flee to lower tax states. Switzerland operates in the same way, where Cantons compete with one another. The net result is that the Swiss enjoy some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world, while maintaining one of the highest standards of living. This downward pressure on tax increases is a feature, not a bug.

2. Your own example is a bit of a contradiction, because Amazon ultimately failed to receive the tax break it wanted, since Queens/NYC “prevailed”

Re: California issues first rolling blackouts since 2001

#242

Post by triceratops » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 3:23 PM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #241

triceratops wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say anything about election funding. Having money to hire lobbyists lets people influence legislation to their benefit.[1] Big businesses can demand larger tax breaks by playing cities off each other.[2] These are just two ways in which more money translates into more influence. 1. https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/0... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_HQ2#Criticism_and_oppos.…

> Having money to hire lobbyists lets people influence legislation to their benefit. Sure, but ultimately the legislators are accountable to the voters, not the lobbyists. Most voters elect the candidate they think is most likely to represent their interests. Sometimes lobbyists influence legislators in ways that align with the interests of the legislator’s constituents, which is a feature and not a bug. When lobbyis…

Yeah...no. Most voters are not paying to the nitty-gritty of legislation that their representative votes on. Representatives rarely ever read the full text of the bills they vote on. It's a stretch to say voters do so, let alone use that info to inform their votes. As you said, these are partisan times and voters mostly just vote for "their guy" (or gal).

In the case of Amazon, they failed to receive the tax break they wanted from one locality, after protests. They still got it from the Virginia location and they found out what other cities were willing to offer them. More importantly, because of their size they were able to make demands that smaller businesses could not - so it's not like all businesses benefit from these lower taxes. And dozens of stories like this play out nationwide every year, without much coverage. This is standard operating procedure when Walmart opens a new location.

Re: California issues first rolling blackouts since 2001

#243

Post by bhupy » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 3:58 PM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #242

bhupy wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having money to hire lobbyists lets people influence legislation to their benefit. Sure, but ultimately the legislators are accountable to the voters, not the lobbyists. Most voters elect the candidate they think is most likely to represent their interests. Sometimes lobbyists influence legislators in ways that align with the interests of the legislator’s constituents, which is a feature and not a bug. When lobbyis…

Yeah...no. Most voters are not paying to the nitty-gritty of legislation that their representative votes on. Representatives rarely ever read the full text of the bills they vote on. It's a stretch to say voters do so, let alone use that info to inform their votes. As you said, these are partisan times and voters mostly just vote for "their guy" (or gal). In the case of Amazon, they failed to receive the tax break th…

> Most voters are not paying to the nitty-gritty of legislation that their representative votes on.

Sure, nobody suggested that they were. Voters pay attention to the high-level policy platforms of their representatives.

> As you said, these are partisan times and voters mostly just vote for "their guy" (or gal).

Yes, and "their guy (or gal)" are not arbitrarily chosen. The average voter chooses their representatives based on whether they think the representative is advancing the causes they care most about, or fighting against the causes they most disagree with.

> They still got it from the Virginia location and they found out what other cities were willing to offer them.

Sure, and that's what the residents/voters of Virginia sought out — local economic surplus.

> More importantly, because of their size they were able to make demands that smaller businesses could not - so it's not like all businesses benefit from these lower taxes.

This isn't necessarily true. Amazon, utilizes its economies of scale just like any other comparable institution. Unions can make demands that individual employees cannot, large nations can make demands that smaller nations cannot, Medicare might be able to make demands that smaller insurers cannot, etc etc. Most relevantly, small businesses themselves form industry associations that exert political force. And unlike power consolidation in labor unions or state actors, corporate consolidation is typically earned — people voluntarily engage with Amazon because it provides goods & services cheaply and reliably.

> And dozens of stories like this play out nationwide every year, without much coverage. This is standard operating procedure when Walmart opens a new location.

No they don't, this isn't even a falsifiable argument.

Re: California issues first rolling blackouts since 2001

#244

Post by triceratops » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #243

triceratops wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah...no. Most voters are not paying to the nitty-gritty of legislation that their representative votes on. Representatives rarely ever read the full text of the bills they vote on. It's a stretch to say voters do so, let alone use that info to inform their votes. As you said, these are partisan times and voters mostly just vote for "their guy" (or gal). In the case of Amazon, they failed to receive the tax break th…

> Most voters are not paying to the nitty-gritty of legislation that their representative votes on. Sure, nobody suggested that they were. Voters pay attention to the high-level policy platforms of their representatives. > As you said, these are partisan times and voters mostly just vote for "their guy" (or gal). Yes, and "their guy (or gal)" are not arbitrarily chosen. The average voter chooses their representatives…

> No they don't, this isn't even a falsifiable argument.

I mean this is pretty common knowledge re: Walmart, I'm amazed you're even arguing about. But here you go:

"While it was not feasible to contact local officials in all 3,000-plus communities in which Wal-Mart’s U.S. stores are located to find other subsidy deals, we did take this approach for all of the company’s distribution centers that are in operation or are being developed. We found that 84 of the 91 centers have received subsidies totaling at least $624 million. The deals, most of which involved a variety of subsidies, ranged as high as $48 million, with an average of about $7.4 million. As with the stores, a considerable amount of information on the size of the subsidies is not available, so the real total is certainly much higher."[1]

https://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/w...

Re: California issues first rolling blackouts since 2001

#245

Post by awillen » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 10:20 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #232

awillen wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there were absolutely problems (though bear in mind you're addressing one program - there was also the TVA, CCC, and a bunch of others I could've told you off the top of my head when I was in US history in high school), but the point is it put unemployed people to work and helped stem the damage to the economy. It's the best precedent we have for the situation we're in today, and it's silly to act as though it'…

> They're problems that are easily fixable, after all - it's very possible for us to create programs today that have similar positive effects on employment and the economy and just do them without the racism. I disagree. The racism was a manifestation of the problems critics of the New Deal have with it: when you put government bureaucrats in charge of building things and running the economy, they inject their own bi…

We've been injecting money into the economy in a broad-based way through PPP. It didn't turn out especially well, a lot of it went to large companies that didn't need it, and small businesses (largely restaurants) are going bankrupt in enormous numbers because it didn't help them sufficiently.

You're arguing that a New Deal-esque program is going to be problematic because it's inherently going to have issues in execution, but you're suggesting a solution that there's absolutely no reason to believe won't have issues in execution.

Re: California issues first rolling blackouts since 2001

#246

Post by bhupy » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 12:18 PM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #244

bhupy wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most voters are not paying to the nitty-gritty of legislation that their representative votes on. Sure, nobody suggested that they were. Voters pay attention to the high-level policy platforms of their representatives. > As you said, these are partisan times and voters mostly just vote for "their guy" (or gal). Yes, and "their guy (or gal)" are not arbitrarily chosen. The average voter chooses their representatives…

> No they don't, this isn't even a falsifiable argument. I mean this is pretty common knowledge re: Walmart, I'm amazed you're even arguing about. But here you go: "While it was not feasible to contact local officials in all 3,000-plus communities in which Wal-Mart’s U.S. stores are located to find other subsidy deals, we did take this approach for all of the company’s distribution centers that are in operation or ar…

That’s not the unfalsifiable argument. We’d already addressed Amazon and Wal-Mart. 2 of the 500+ billion dollar corporations that contribute to “inequality” as a nebulous problem.

Outside of that, you said:

> And dozens of stories like this play out nationwide every year, without much coverage

You’re arguing that there are “dozens of other stories like this” but that it’s apparently so commonplace, there’s no reporting on it. This is literally unfalsifiable, and more or less hogwash.

Re: California issues first rolling blackouts since 2001

#247

Post by triceratops » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 7:35 AM UTC

bhupy wrote: post #246

triceratops wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No they don't, this isn't even a falsifiable argument. I mean this is pretty common knowledge re: Walmart, I'm amazed you're even arguing about. But here you go: "While it was not feasible to contact local officials in all 3,000-plus communities in which Wal-Mart’s U.S. stores are located to find other subsidy deals, we did take this approach for all of the company’s distribution centers that are in operation or ar…

That’s not the unfalsifiable argument. We’d already addressed Amazon and Wal-Mart. 2 of the 500+ billion dollar corporations that contribute to “inequality” as a nebulous problem. Outside of that, you said: > And dozens of stories like this play out nationwide every year, without much coverage You’re arguing that there are “dozens of other stories like this” but that it’s apparently so commonplace, there’s no reporti…

Walmart alone opens dozens of new stores every year. Each one is a local story that doesn't get much coverage outside that locality. There are multiple chain stores just in the US. Boom, I just proved the "dozens of stories" part of my claim. :-P

Chain stores aren't the only kinds of businesses that lobby for tax breaks and subsidies. Sports teams are another example. And these are just the industries that get coverage.

Re: California issues first rolling blackouts since 2001

#248

Post by gdubs » Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 2:43 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #161

jlmorton wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? This happens every year - always.

100 for this long ? Last year the highest we got was 90s for a couple of days. I have never experienced 100 degree weather here on 12 years of living here. And that too for days

Which part of the bay? We lived in Los Altos for 6 years and when we first arrived old-timers said the heat was unusual. Every summer after had crazy heatwaves. A couple were so bad I was concerned about my infant, in our old house with no central air and terrible insulation.