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Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

newstatesman.com

241–250 of 278 posts

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#241
post #224

From the article: "Recalling the famous example of the pin factory that Adam Smith used to explain the division of labour, Russell imagined a new technology that will halve the amount of time it takes to make a pin. If the market for pins is already saturated, what will happen? In a sane world, Russell thought, the factory would simply halve working hours, maintaining the same wages but greatly increasing the time th…

> Can regulation fix this? What if it was illegal to work more than X hours per week? X=20 for example. Actually, let me answer my own question: Everyone would need to have 2 jobs, and every company would employ twice the number of people.

I think that's the most likely scenario

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#242
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Capitalism is fine, just don't treat it as a religion (looking sternly at you, HN crowd) and know that it needs to be fixed from time to time. We've been patching capitalism for centuries if not millennia: abolishing indentured servitude, environmental protection, public education, workers' rights, market regulations... All that needs to be done is to properly mandate maximum work hours (no overtime even if the worke…

> All that needs to be done is to properly mandate maximum work hours (no overtime even if the worker is willing).

We are close to that in Norway already. See https://www.arbeidstilsynet.no/en/working-conditions/working...

Quote:

The Working Environment Act defines working hours as time when the employee is at the disposal of the employer. The time the employee is not at the disposal of the employer is referred to as off-duty time.

There are limits for how much you may work per 24-hour day and per week. These limits are laid down in the Working Environment Act, but may also be regulated by your employment contract and by any collective agreements.

The limits prescribed by the Working Environment Act for normal working hours are:

    9 hours per 24 hours

    40 hours per 7 days
If you work shifts, nights or Sundays, normal working hours are 38 or 36 hours a week. The duration and disposition of the daily and weekly working hours must be stated in your employment contract.

The employer shall keep an account of the employee’s working hours. Calculation on the basis of a fixed average

The normal working hours may be calculated on the basis of a fixed average. This means that you may work more than the limit for normal working hours during certain periods in exchange for working correspondingly shorter hours during other periods. The average number of hours worked must be within the limits for normal working hours.

end quote

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#243
post #42

All this thought about the economy and working and idleness doesn't take things far enough. What we really need to abolish is human metabolism. The fact that we need to eat and hustle to grow and acquire calories and nutrients is the real oppressor. We need to scientifically find out how to stop metabolism so we all don't need to work and will never starve. Attack the root of the problem. Next in line is mortality.

I'm not sure if you're serious or presenting what you think is an absurdity, but I instantly knew human photosynthesis must be an existing science fiction trope, even though I don't actually know a title offhand. Frankly, I expect this sort of thing before fusion power that is "too cheap to meter". See: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/151099/story-inclu...

Lise by D M Arnold. See, for instance, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18759915-lise and https://earthbound.virtualimprint.com/

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the workers actually controlled the factory and not a commissar sent by central planning? There are lots of different ways to do this. For central planning, one proposal I saw offered that the workers could be organized into sectoral unions that participate as a sector in government. This weight and common interest allows them to counter the weight of voters that ask for too much. It's also large enough of an…

Well, we have one big agglomeration in the US for policing workers. That hasn't led to positive results for society.

I'm not sure what you're talking about? The police?

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#245
post #34

Why a partisan article is being discussed here? Really. This is material affiliated to the Labour Party in the U.K. which is associated to the International Socialist. Why is it a subject here?

Why are you so scared of different ideas?

I'm not scared of different ideas but I know the left censors different ideas.

But the reason I ask is this:

Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That destroys the curiosity this site exists for.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think doing your part to guarantee your fellow citizens get their (in the US at least) constitutionally guaranteed right to a jury trial is "worth it"?

According to this thread: no, it's not nearly as important as your own time. They can always get someone else to fill in.

[deleted]

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individuals can make personal, effective efforts on this front.

Let's hear some. I believe there is little an individual can do, apart from participating in collective efforts that are fighting this effectively (of which very few are allowed to exist for long)

Collective efforts exist due to the contributions of individuals. One person making a principled stand on how to live their life makes a difference. There are examples all over this thread, and even if you don't think something will last, it doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to support it in the moment.

The obvious response to your request is "do nothing". And don't let anyone sway you otherwise.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, I disagree. Capitalism is the most natural system because it accepts what we are - selfish beings in a competitive environment. If we didn't specialize and trade skills/products/services, we'd still be a hunter-gatherer species. The system is what kept us going, not what holds us back. It only looks like oppression in 2020 because of how easy the rest of life is.

Capitalism cannot be the most natural system simply because it's only barely 300 years old. Before that, there was a whole slew of different ways to organize production and distribution. Primitive tribal communes, large tribal unions, agricultural slavery, feudalisms of varying shapes... and that's only in Europe.

Regardless of the obvious political quackery downvoting my original comment, this is what I was pointing out: we're not as self-prioritizing as we are convenience-prioritizing. Capitalism isn't the only solution, just like how any given criticism of the current implementation of capitalism isn't only indicative of a problem intrinsic to capitalism. The problem is we don't have effective checks and balances to over-conveniencing ourselves.

I believe that's the problem with capitalism as it is today. Whomever owns the means of production has literally zero constraints on maximizing their convenience. The expense ends up drastically inconveniencing, to the point of being a barrier to access, everyone who doesn't own the means of production.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#249
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't answer for caymanjim. Personally, I now work about 2-5 hours per week, mostly just meeting some people (don't have to do anything besides talking to them). What I realized early in my professional career was that position trumps everything. For example, if you are born into a great enough position, you are set for life, pretty much regardless of anything else. Then I figured out (slowly over time through trial…

I'm curious. If you don't mind me asking, what do you talk about for those 2-5 hours?

Depends on who I meet with. But mostly it's about financials, sales, planning, legal issues and team building (usually talking about personal stuff and building rapport as a group). Sometimes it's about product and programming.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

highly agree > I frequently take many months off between jobs, sometimes a year or more. Definitely speaking from a place of privilege. Single moms living in poverty don't have the luxury to care for her mental health. She probably can't take even a few days off, voluntarily, much rather months or years. Let me ask you (caymanjim), in the months and years you take off, how do you subsist? The average American has, wh…

This sentiment expresses something I'm starting to see a lot in our discourse. I call it "third-party outrage", where you (bystander) get mad because you think some "aggressor" did something bad to some hypothetical "victim". What cracks me up is that oftentimes, the victims don't even care or don't get nearly as mad as the bystandars. Same story with tech workers getting mad about how Amazon pays their employees. Is…

It only makes sense to do something if you expect results. The victim doesn't get mad because there is no point to it. (or they just feel that way) They just have to accept whatever is coming at them. (or they just feel that way) Are there labor laws if you cant afford legal action?
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