Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action • Hacker News Board

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#241

Post by quotemstr » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 6:31 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #189

quotemstr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the state doesn't blacklist programs. Code is speech. Bernstein v. Department of Justice established that [1] in the 1990s. Sure, if you have an app, and you distribute copyrighted material as part of that app, yes, you can be prosecuted under copyright law and be forced (via injunction) to stop distributing that app. But the word "law" is essential: there is a specific rule, set out in advance, which applies to…

> You can't just bypass the whole "make a rule" and "show that $X broke the rule" thing and go straight to "punish X". Yes, as long as the punishment isn't essentially criminal in nature, you can, and it's long been a regularly used tool of foreign policy, under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. When sanctions are declared against foreign companies or individuals or trade with them otherwise restricted…

That this particular banning may be legal (and I think that's arguable) doesn't make it good policy (which I strongly believe it is not), because the reasoning behind nulla poena sine lega applies here too. The whole reason we have rules and not a chaos of capriciousness is to make it possible to plan, predict, and invest. A state that arbitrarily punishes international parties for unclear reasons will decrease confidence in all foreign interactions.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#242

Post by 949throaway2020 » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 6:33 AM UTC

magicsmoke wrote: post #120

euix wrote: post #48

Shows how far the balance of power has shifted in the last 20 years back when the Chinese government was banning western products to prevent "spiritual pollution" and "western influence". Now we got the reverse and it's also for ideological reasons (at least at face value). Wonder if WeChat is next. That would be fairly effective in prevent overseas Chinese from communicating with the mainland and a lot of mom and po…

I think overseas Chinese have bigger problems to worry about than Wechat getting banned. Based on the trajectory the world is heading in, we might be seeing Pacific War 2.0 and internment camps in a few decades.

>we might be seeing Pacific War 2.0 in a few decades

An American-Chinese Pacific War is a projection of American insecurity.

In the long run, without its 19th and 20th century grievances, the Chinese do not care about America. Full stop.

One day the Chinese GDP per capita (currently 8,000 USD) will reach the Taiwanese GDP per capita (about 25,000 USD), the Chinese GDP will triple and nothing America does will ever be interesting to the Chinese again. Except for a Pacific War, which brings no benefit to the Chinese, outside of a few small satrapies.

If we Americans recognize the Chinese tendency is towards isolationism, a tendency with historic precedents, there will be no armed conflicts down the line.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#243

Post by chillacy » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 7:03 AM UTC

justinzollars wrote: post #227

khuey wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stonehenge is also between 4 and 5 thousand years old but it's not going to tell you anything about the mystical traditions of the people of the British Isles.

The difference between the West and China is that China has been able to maintain its civilization state and it has a continuous history. The West's history is discontinuous

I noticed that "maintaining civilizational state" is.. to be generous.. simply a state of narrative. The imperial system is definitely over, Xi wears a suit and tie and there are no legions of eunichs running the country.

Though fun fact, Mussolini was pretty big on emphasizing the whole Italy == Rome deal.

And in the US there's only maybe 300 years of serious history to cover so I recall my history class had to reach all the way back to Greece as an idealogical source of American democracy.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#244

Post by chillacy » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 7:06 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #205

khuey wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe it just implies that the Golden Rule still exists?

"An eye for an eye" is not the Golden Rule!

But in game theory at least, tit-for-tat is a pretty successful strategy.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#245

Post by chillacy » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 7:08 AM UTC

tchaffee wrote: post #86

busymom0 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a good measure to even the playing field. Thousands of companies are blocked in China. So why not do the same?

Because we live in a relatively free country where the government doesn't choose what software we buy or use.

This is sort of similar to tarrifs no? The government selectively (through lobbyists and deals) picks which types of things are taxed (sometimes to unprofitability). Other things are banned entirely. Not saying Kinder Eggs would be missed as much as Tik Tok, but this is historically something the government does.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#246

Post by quotemstr » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 7:10 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #169

akersten wrote: post #2

Under what authority? A dozen paragraphs in the article and not one questioning whether he can actually do this. What would such an executive action look like? An EO to Apple and Google to de-list the app from their stores? Why should they comply? What's he going to do when ByteDance uploads the .apk somewhere? Sick of media treating this man like a zoo exhibit instead of the advanced persistent threat to US democrac…

> Under what authority? Under the authority of an executive order. > Why should they comply? Because these are american companies, who make a bunch of their money in america, and they can be fined many millions or even billions of dollars, or possibly even arrested if they don't comply with the orders of the nation that has the most powerful military in the world. > What's he going to do when ByteDance uploads the .a…

So you basically reject the overarching principle of limited government? Want to go full Melian Dialogue? The strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must?

The problem with ruling arbitrarily is that it kills predictability and crushes the spirit. It leads to a state of fear in which nobody wants to invest or go out on a limb, because in an environment where you can be punished for anything, everything is dangerous.

That's why I'm personally adamant about requiring a rule before a punishment and why I'm dubious on this recent "let's sanction this one random foreign guy" push.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#247

Post by chillacy » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 7:17 AM UTC

dimitrios1 wrote: post #99

free_rms wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon my phrasing, but that's some bullshit buck-passing. If 100 russians or whomever can subvert our democracy, we never really had it together to begin with, did we? Maybe, and this sounds crazy, but maybe it's domestic people trying to whip up a fallacious outside threat for insider political reasons. A totally unheard of phenomenon.

Considering spies and espionage literally turned the tide of two world wars, you might be selling the effectiveness of it short when conducted at a nation-state level. Again to your reply, I don't think you understand how pervasive and wide reaching it has become. We are talking about entire groups of protesters and counter-protesters being organized and subsequently funded through donation platforms solely by foreig…

Reminds me of wartime psy-ops:

Airborne leaflet propaganda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_leaflet_propaganda

Also, Taiwan has a huge speaker array pointed at mainland china which blasts propaganda: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/beishan-broadcast-stat...

Though sometimes it ends up making the target stronger if it can overcome the complaints E.g. Soviet propaganda highlighting racial injustice in the US probably forced some real changes in the 60s.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#248

Post by mjburgess » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 7:22 AM UTC

billfruit wrote: post #141

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #106

Not even getting into the CCP ties, it's always struck me as unfair that Western social media companies are banned in China, while Chinese ones have been able to compete Worldwide. In a way this gives Chinese apps an immediate advantage (as some are indirectly calling out in this comment section). If you want to reach out to someone in China, you have to use a Chinese company's app. Since social media is mostly a win…

But this measure isn't bring contemplated from that motive, it appears, the whole narrative is about some perceived threats to national security, which most analysts think is over hyped and only 'theoritical'.

Just as China hides market intervention and protectionism behind ideological control; the US hides economic interventionism and protectionsim behind national security.

The defence budget of the US is in large part the gov's R&D budget and national economic programme. 'National Security' is now its headline for its international economic programme.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#249

Post by chillacy » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 7:23 AM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #119

There’s ongoing joke about USA becoming large Turkey because all the stuff that we used to say that would never happen in a proper democracy is happening one by one. I know you don’t want to hear it, I know you think that you are exceptional and you are not like the others who ban apps and websıtes but I am going to say it anyway as a record for the future. When Turkey banned YouTube or Twitter of course it was banne…

Well the US banned Kinder Eggs. I don't necessarily like it but the US has a history of protectionist trade laws.

Re: Trump says he will ban TikTok through executive action

#250

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sat, Aug 01, 2020, 7:39 AM UTC

rumanator wrote: post #228

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not super relevant to this case, because TikTok itself is banned in China; Chinese users have to use Douyin, which runs the same platform but doesn't share content with TikTok.

> (...) because TikTok itself is banned in China; Chinese users have to use Douyin Seems to me that it's not banned at all, they just release a region-specific version for a specific market.

It's banned in the relevant sense, that users of TikTok aren't getting any kind of network effect from the Chinese userbase.