Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#241

Post by chadlavi » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:07 PM UTC

It's completely possible to achieve the same connection with a git repo of simple markdown files if you make sure:

* each file has a descriptive name that starts with an iso date

* each file is on a specific topic or idea

* you are using a text editor/IDE like vscode that has good search tools

You can search a keyword across your whole notes database and you can see immediately when the note was written to get some chronological context and see, of course, the note itself. You can scroll through the list of results to see other places where you're using that keyword.

The visual graph part the author is using is just a toy.

TLDR: any full-text-search notes database is functionally a Zettelkasten, don't stress about it, just start taking notes

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#242

Post by napoleond » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:10 PM UTC

gas9S9zw3P9c wrote: post #196

This seems to be a new trend now. I'm skeptical. Many of the most successful people I know don't have complicated systems like this - instead of spending time on optimizing note taking, they actually get stuff done. In fact, many don't have systems at all. On the other side, most people raving about the systems are "productivity gurus" writing articles and books, not people who actually get stuff done or would be con…

I have a similar observation around the idea of "working in public" by, e.g. blogging or tweeting a lot about your work. Proponents of this approach say that it will help your career immensely, and while I believe that it can I've also observed that the most successful people don't spend a huge amount of time blogging or tweeting about their work.

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#243

Post by chadlavi » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:12 PM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #220

I've come to realize that: 1. 80% note-taking value is in writing the info down in *any* form. 2. 19% is in re-reading your notes. Moreover, you'll evolve a loose/informal system if you stick with it long enough. You'll learn to read your past self. That's presumably what Herr Luhmann did. Note-taking changed my life. I urge people to stop chasing perfection and just get started.

> I urge people to stop chasing perfection and just get started.

This is BY FAR the most important aspect of note taking. Just do it. Start now.

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#244

Post by valarauko » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

gas9S9zw3P9c wrote: post #196

This seems to be a new trend now. I'm skeptical. Many of the most successful people I know don't have complicated systems like this - instead of spending time on optimizing note taking, they actually get stuff done. In fact, many don't have systems at all. On the other side, most people raving about the systems are "productivity gurus" writing articles and books, not people who actually get stuff done or would be con…

I'm sympathetic to this argument, though I suspect it isn't as simple as "just get stuff done". If we could have, we would have.

My suspicion is that the natural productivity for individuals in the population follows a bell curve: some people are crazy productive, regardless of their tools, and at the other end are people who are beyond help. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, and these tools will likely help some, but not all of them. It's unlikely any one methodology can help everybody.

As someone who's just beginning to try out orgmode, I can see its value, though it would likely do little to overcome my own personal productivity weaknesses: poor planning and foresight at the beginning. No amount of otherwise excellent tools can overcome a poorly thought out plan. They do, however, highlight how ill-conceived my initial plans were. It's up to me to do something about it. I have found a GTD-like review approach to be the most helpful.

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#245

Post by leethargo » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

gexla wrote: post #238

slightwinder wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of the most successful people I know don't have complicated systems like this How do you know? Maybe their set of habits are a complicated system which they are just not aware of being a system, thus not they are not talking about as they consider it as natural or just obvious. It seems to be some kind of effect of the internet that people talking about everything leads also to people making big science and sy…

Right, iterating on your workflow is a normal part of work. > I see a similar trend with org-mode users. It's great and all on a technical level (I've used it myself in the past) but it's easy to fall into the elisp and customization rabbit hole. I think part of the issue is that people try to jump into the middle of something which has evolved without going through that evolution themselves. In other words, they nee…

I went through multiple stages with org-mode myself: 1) Just use it naively, instead of the ad-hoc note-taking I did before. 2) Customize it heavily, including a system for citation management. I definitely wasted a lot of hours reading documentation and blog post. But I also ended up using that system for 5+ years consistently. 3) Switch to paper notebooks for calendar, tasks and note-taking.

During 2), I often felt overwhelmed by the ever-growing list of TODOs, in particular those that scheduled at regular intervals.

With paper notebooks, and manual migration of tasks from one month to the next, it's easier to say "no" to things.

But, now that I've filled up three 200-page notebooks, I do struggle to find some old notes, or even remember that they exist.

So, maybe I will revert to an org-mode based "archive" for long-term ideas.

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#246

Post by slightwinder » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

gas9S9zw3P9c wrote: post #215

slightwinder wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of the most successful people I know don't have complicated systems like this How do you know? Maybe their set of habits are a complicated system which they are just not aware of being a system, thus not they are not talking about as they consider it as natural or just obvious. It seems to be some kind of effect of the internet that people talking about everything leads also to people making big science and sy…

> How do you know? Maybe their set of habits are a complicated system which they are just not aware of being a system, thus not they are not talking about as they consider it as natural or just obvious. You're absolutely right. But with that you are also just arguing about the definition of "system" - everything is a system in one way or another depending on where you draw the line. If I scribble stuff into my notebo…

> If I scribble stuff into my notebook and throw it away once it's full, you can call that a system.

If you do it regulary, then yes, it is. A system in that space is mostly definied by habits and rules. Regulary doing the same stuff again and again, even if it's braindead simple, is basically what people consider as a system. Though, whether it's good, is a different topic.

> By system here I meant a system or product that has a well-known name they can point to, like Zettelkasten or GTD or BASB, etc.

Yes, that's what I'm curious about. Zettelkasten is not very complex. Actually it's even very simple. The whole secret is to use reference in your notes and connect them by using a simple naming/numbering-schema. Not much work, not much system. People do that with their notebooks all the time.

The whole cargo-cult growing from it is a different problem and indeed something really bothersome at some point. But GTD and BASB are also not much more complicated if you take the gist of them.

Maybe people are stimulated to build big trades of them because they are just so quite simple and obvious? Many undefinied are, many space for people to paint their thoughts and habit on the canvas.

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#247

Post by nextos » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:30 PM UTC

gexla wrote: post #238

slightwinder wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of the most successful people I know don't have complicated systems like this How do you know? Maybe their set of habits are a complicated system which they are just not aware of being a system, thus not they are not talking about as they consider it as natural or just obvious. It seems to be some kind of effect of the internet that people talking about everything leads also to people making big science and sy…

Right, iterating on your workflow is a normal part of work. > I see a similar trend with org-mode users. It's great and all on a technical level (I've used it myself in the past) but it's easy to fall into the elisp and customization rabbit hole. I think part of the issue is that people try to jump into the middle of something which has evolved without going through that evolution themselves. In other words, they nee…

> I think part of the issue is that people try to jump into the middle of something which has evolved without going through that evolution themselves

This is so true. I use a small subset of Org's features, and I have grown my workflow really slowly.

I also have very minimal dotfiles, yet I consider myself an advanced Emacs and Unix user.

It doesn't need to be a timesink. Also, as you say, complicated workflows are the consequence of iterating through many years and are likely paying off the efforts multiplied by a big factor.

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#248

Post by gooseyard » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:30 PM UTC

dghf wrote: post #166

IIRC, Robert Pirsig (author of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance ) described pretty much exactly this method of taking and organising notes on index cards in Lila , his 1991 follow-up to Zen ... . Does anyone know whether Pirsig got the idea from Luhmann, Luhmann from Pirsig, both from someone else, or if both invented it independently?

hah that was my first thought as well; I've always been tempted to try it, but I was dubious about whether I'd have the discipline to keep the cards organized, and I feared that if I tried to make myself a piece of software to do it that I'd get so distracted by writing the software that I'd never write any notes. So I'm curious to give it a whirl now with someone else's software :)

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#249

Post by julianeon » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:31 PM UTC

slightwinder wrote: post #214

gas9S9zw3P9c wrote: post #196

This seems to be a new trend now. I'm skeptical. Many of the most successful people I know don't have complicated systems like this - instead of spending time on optimizing note taking, they actually get stuff done. In fact, many don't have systems at all. On the other side, most people raving about the systems are "productivity gurus" writing articles and books, not people who actually get stuff done or would be con…

> Many of the most successful people I know don't have complicated systems like this How do you know? Maybe their set of habits are a complicated system which they are just not aware of being a system, thus not they are not talking about as they consider it as natural or just obvious. It seems to be some kind of effect of the internet that people talking about everything leads also to people making big science and sy…

I know elisp and I never use it for org-mode. Actually all of my use of org-mode can be summarized in this short comment.

I use org-mode as 'outline mode.' I only do this with it:

* asterisk denotes a level

* asterisk next to an asterisk denotes a sub-level of a level

* sublevels can have sublevels, effectively making them a level, by the above rules

Then you press tab to expand a level or sub-level, press tab again to contract a level or sub-level.

That's it! I tried some of the org-mode add-ons but never found them useful; this is the only one I use regularly.

Re: Stop Taking Regular Notes; Use a Zettelkasten Instead

#250

Post by nextos » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 3:40 PM UTC

julianeon wrote: post #249

slightwinder wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of the most successful people I know don't have complicated systems like this How do you know? Maybe their set of habits are a complicated system which they are just not aware of being a system, thus not they are not talking about as they consider it as natural or just obvious. It seems to be some kind of effect of the internet that people talking about everything leads also to people making big science and sy…

I know elisp and I never use it for org-mode. Actually all of my use of org-mode can be summarized in this short comment. I use org-mode as 'outline mode.' I only do this with it: * asterisk denotes a level * asterisk next to an asterisk denotes a sub-level of a level * sublevels can have sublevels, effectively making them a level, by the above rules Then you press tab to expand a level or sub-level, press tab again…

org-mode is outline-mode plus some extra markup like timestamps or links. Those are the basics.

Then, you can create views of one or several combined files. For example all items with a timestamp in the near future (deadlines). The standard view for organization is called org-agenda.

Aside from that, you have many other features which you won't need to use initially. For example, the ability to embed code and do literate programming.