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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#241
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason for this is because once elected, there is very little that the population can do to hold the official accountable. You can’t remove officials for not fulfilling their promises. They can also delay until it’s too late by saying, “I’m working on it.” Then once out of office, they are accountable for nothing. Job safety is built into the position for good reason. However, it’s been perverted to allow officia…

I am curious, what would such a system look like? I am thinking that a "promise" is not a quantitative term. It needs to be ratified into specific data oriented actions that can go through a litmus test whether it was fulfilled or betrayed. After that, one idea is to have an accountability score tracked by bureaucracy and have that printed on the ballot along with their principle accomplishments in the supplement. An…

A control theory idea: use continuous voting. When the support falls below some threshold (e.g. 50%), kick the candidate out.

But now you'll get an unstable system where candidates get kicked out all the time and are too populist because they don't expect to live long.

So add a low-pass filter. When the moving average of the candidate's support falls below the threshold and a definite other candidate's support is high enough, replace the incumbent with that challenger.

You might even increase the duration of the moving average with time, like the doubling trick in multi-armed bandits. The logic is that a candidate who has shown that he can weather the initial period without getting voted out can be trusted with more long-term decisions, i.e. actions speak louder than words.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's just violence. Political violence is when someone is murdered - by police or otherwise - for political reasons . And, property damage can be violence. Arson, in particular, has a non-zero chance of killing someone. And property damage - especially if it's to a home - can cause trauma to people. It's not just some innocent form of public expression.

Is it not political violence when a black man is killed in the street without due process, treated differently than a white person would be? I still haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that any homes have been looted or burned by protestors, or that anyone has been killed by protestors. Only "what if"s, like "what if the fire killed someone?" It didn't, but we have a very real case of a police officer killing someon…

No, that's racist violence, not political violence.

It doesn't have to be burning homes for arson to have potential to kill. Burning a Target can easily kill someone too.

And, "it hasn't kill anyone yet" is a pretty weak counter to the claim that arson can be violence. In fact, people do die from arson. The fact that nobody has - yet - in these protests does not change that whatsoever.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure it’s quite so simple as “they change their mind”. In a republic where deal-making has to happen, if you ran on W, X, Y, and Z, you might have to compromise on Z to get W, X, and a watered-down version of Y. Doesn’t mean you changed your mind on Z or strict-Y, but you can’t get everything you want because other Americans want other things and they can’t get everything they want either. Maybe a lesser poli…

> In a republic where deal-making has to happen, if you ran on W, X, Y, and Z, you might have to compromise on Z to get W, X, and a watered-down version of Y. Doesn’t mean you changed your mind on Z or strict-Y, but you can’t get everything you want because other Americans want other things and they can’t get everything they want either. Maybe a lesser politician would only have gotten W and half of X If I owned a co…

There are 100 Senators and 435 Representatives. They don't all run on the same set of promises (or else we'd presumably get all of those outcomes). Often their platform promises are in conflict with each other.

They make deals with each other to get some of what they represent their constituents want in exchange for some of what the others' constituents want. This is necessary (and I believe by and large healthy) behavior when you're trying to govern ~350 million people.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#244
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason for this is because once elected, there is very little that the population can do to hold the official accountable. You can’t remove officials for not fulfilling their promises. They can also delay until it’s too late by saying, “I’m working on it.” Then once out of office, they are accountable for nothing. Job safety is built into the position for good reason. However, it’s been perverted to allow officia…

I am curious, what would such a system look like? I am thinking that a "promise" is not a quantitative term. It needs to be ratified into specific data oriented actions that can go through a litmus test whether it was fulfilled or betrayed. After that, one idea is to have an accountability score tracked by bureaucracy and have that printed on the ballot along with their principle accomplishments in the supplement. An…

> I am curious, what would such a system look like?

Switzerland, people can always overrule politicians decisions there, no need to wait until next election. This means that the opinions of politicians is no longer as important so this issue doesn't even come up. So you place more value on finding the politician best fit for running the country, not the politician with values most aligned to your own.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Community oversight through a board 2. Limit the use of force 3. Independently investigate and prosecute 4. Community representation 5. Body cams / film the police 6. Training in de-escalation 7. End for profit policing 8. Demilitarization of the police force 9. Fair police union contracts that remove provisions within police bill of rights that impose barriers to accountability Look here: Https://bit.ly/3cosVXM

I mentioned this in another thread, but I’ve heard the idea of putting cops on rotations similar to military deployments. I don’t think a cop can psychologically hold up being on the street for years on end without losing some perspective. The job fundamentally blasts you with the worst of people, and it’s easy to develop a rotten world view if measures are not taken to handle that input. A maximum limit of X months…

Very good point.

I've worked in a consulting position with a German police union a long time ago (different than the US unions, they are regular trade unions here, generally left-of-center). The new guy running the local office told me that he was fortunate to discover exactly what you describe happening to himself and asked to be placed elsewhere so he won't start arresting every black person wearing baggy pants that he sees.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#246
post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

there are tangible ways that laws could be setup and practices adhered to that would make cops more accountable and, while maybe the same level of racist in some parts, help ensure that they get held accountable more often than not.

mandatory body cams rolling at all times unless they are in a bathroom.

turning off or a malfunctioning camera during the act of a police brutality event immediately pierces the qualified immunity defense and they are tried as citizens.

have an outside investigative body that has zero ties to the police department investigate any reports of abuse.

have another outside investigative body that has zero ties to the police department randomly sampling police stop footage to see if there are any instances of impropriety.

I am sure this list is non-exhaustive but it's a start. also, while we are here, fix the issue of civil asset forfeiture. the clear "we get to take your money because it looks suspicious and then keep it for the police department" is a huge conflict of interest.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#247
post #196
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police get unbelievably huge amounts of money (like serious amounts of money) so it's not that. Yesterday police in Columbus, Ohio replaced the American flag flying outside of their headquarters with a "Blue line" police flag. Just hours ago representatives of our nation's largest police force, the NYPD, posted on twitter the home address of the mayor's adult daughter. It's a lack of political will, but that's ki…

NYPD precincts and officers have all changed their twitter profile picture to a badge with a "thin blue line" band covering the area where the identifying badge number is: https://twitter.com/jhermann/status/1267524077130039305

Disturbing to see NYPD officers covering their badge numbers en masse like that (in the video a few tweets down).

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#248

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

> but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen.

Why, is there evidence of this? It isn't very obvious to me that he wouldn't get arrested and charged otherwise, this case is way clearer than any other controversial police killing I've seen.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure it’s quite so simple as “they change their mind”. In a republic where deal-making has to happen, if you ran on W, X, Y, and Z, you might have to compromise on Z to get W, X, and a watered-down version of Y. Doesn’t mean you changed your mind on Z or strict-Y, but you can’t get everything you want because other Americans want other things and they can’t get everything they want either. Maybe a lesser poli…

> In a republic where deal-making has to happen, if you ran on W, X, Y, and Z, you might have to compromise on Z to get W, X, and a watered-down version of Y. Doesn’t mean you changed your mind on Z or strict-Y, but you can’t get everything you want because other Americans want other things and they can’t get everything they want either. Maybe a lesser politician would only have gotten W and half of X If I owned a co…

> If I owned a company and the people I hired to manage it were playing games like this

Imagine that you get to hire 5 people to run the company on your behalf, and four other directors each also hire 5 people to further their interests. Some of those other four directors want things that are nearly enough exactly the opposite of what you want, and you can do nothing to expel them, and precious little to change their minds. Also, the best five people who are willing to fill the roles you control are not exactly the ones you would like to hire, but nevertheless, they're the best available and willing. Now what?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American revolution was a violent protest.

It was actually seeking to overthrows the government, and it was treason from the eyes of the British. If the British had won, likely every one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence would have been hanged or worse. If you want to change the way things are inside the system vote, organize, protest. But actually seeking to overthrow the government is opening a whole can of very, very bad things.

Gay rights, women's rights, civil rights were all won by combating unjust power using every tool available, including violence. Oppressors don't self-limit the tools they'll use to maintain power. Neither can those who are oppressed.
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