University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT • Hacker News Board

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#241

Post by gowld » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

bmaisonp wrote: post #201

zajio1am wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here the common strategy for STEM degree programmes is to admit most people and then make first year hard enough that e.g. 2/3 of students are eliminated. In some sense it is more fair than strict admission criteria.

In some sense more fair, but also in some senses less kind and less efficient. Let me give an anecdotal view as someone who had a brush with it at another big state school. University of Washington (Seattle) has a similar system in which some majors are 'capacity constrained' meaning some students would be directly admitted to the program, but the vast majority of them would only enter the major program after being a…

Or they could hire more teachers. Why is education competitive and exclusive? It makes no sense. The whole thing pays for itself in value creation.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#242

Post by wholien » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

Still feel like test scores are the least inequitable parts of college admissions. This is where people can https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/14/upshot/how-universal-coll....

Louisiana made everyone take the ACT and... more people went to college, especially the high achieving low income and/or minority students!

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2303z4.html

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#243

Post by gowld » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #206

nerfhammer wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rather than accepting them for an entire year and then kicking 2/3rds of them out, why not don't kick them out and just teach three times as many students. feels more humane somehow

That’s called lowering your standards. It punishes the third who would have made it under the old system. Better to have a test. Doesn’t waste a year of the lives of the two thirds who drop out.

Me learning doesn't hurt you.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#244

Post by google234123 » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:53 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #115

121789 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is your scenario not already currently adequately served by going to a community college and transferring to a state college?

Such a path has significant stigma associated with it, so no.

Doesn't the current system already accomplish what you want? Why does berkeley need to do this "remedial education"? How would you determine who goes to where?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#245

Post by gowld » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:54 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #212

rayiner wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm a bit baffled; when did attending church become unusual in America? It’s not. Even in Manhattan 45% of people attend religious services “frequently” or “regularly.”

It’s very unusual among the kind of people who staff the admissions departments of selective colleges though.

Harvard, The most elite school in USA, has a church in the center of campus, an official preacher, and a whole Divinity School.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#246

Post by svaha1728 » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:54 AM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #3

I know some people protest measures that are considered more "objective" over measures that are more "holistic", whether this is in school admittance, performance evaluation, promotion consideration, interviewing, determining welfare benefits, choosing who makes the rules and governs. However it has been my experience that whenever an explicit test or hierarchy is removed another shadow one builds up that is more sub…

I agree. I don’t think I would have gone to the Ivy’s without standardized testing. Rust-belter from a public school. Obviously, there are no easy answers. So many great students, teachers and perspectives... and probably an early realization that no one knows it all - especially me. I still look back at my education with nostalgia. The working world isn’t any more fair than the educational world.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#247

Post by yters » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:55 AM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #91

yters wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I improved my SAT score 100 points just doing practice tests

How many times did you take it? If it was only twice, how can you be sure how much of that 100 point discrepancy was attributable to practice, and how much of it was essentially down to chance? I doubt you'd get the same score twice if you took it twice without studying in between.

I did the same thing with the GRE many years later. Jumped something like 80 points with a book of Kaplan practice tests. Maybe I got lucky twice :)

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#248

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:58 AM UTC

People keep saying those tears favor the rich, but I think if you look at legacy admissions, which are the domain of the rich, those tend to have lower SAT scores than other students.

Also, the various people arrested in the college payment schemes were rich, but still were not able to get their kids into the colleges based on their scores.

Basically, the colleges are doing this so they have more leeway to select the students they want without having to answer tough questions about bias and discrimination.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#249

Post by gowld » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:58 AM UTC

Izkata wrote: post #238

accurrent wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not American, but I have seen a lot of my friends apply for American universities. Personally, I think the whole admission process is super messed up. In most places one would take a nation/international examination and based on the score of that exam one would enter. In the US one has to pay "college counselors" and various middle men for handling all sorts of things. I don;t see how removing SATs would make it…

> In the US one has to pay "college counselors" and various middle men for handling all sorts of things. That wasn't a thing when I was applying in 2005, is it recent? I just applied directly to the colleges I wanted, filled out the forms myself with some help from my parents.

Today's headline news:

"Lori Loughlin and Mossimo Giannulli agree to plead guilty in college admissions scam"

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#250

Post by ajsnigrutin » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:59 AM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #181

rvp-x wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see a future cynical me talking about how brutal it is to lure poor students and have them take loans to pay first year tuition only to kick them out a year later with nothing to show for it, if they're not the top 1/3 for some reason.

This is in the context of a free education system, the only thing the poor students loose is a bit of time.

A year is A LOT of time, and you have to explain why you lost a year later on.

Also, even in "free" education systems, some taxpayer is going to ask "why the hell am I paying for 2/3 of crappy students, can't you just raise the bar at the beginning, and only accept the top 1/3?"