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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#241

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

It is not the culture, it is the legislation. Based on a bit of a research USA is the only country that has a Constitution that grants real rights, like freedom of speech, religion, etc. while in the others there are almost zero rights by Constitution, they are privileges that can be suspended or retired. For example, UK or Australia don't have a freedom of speech as such; in Australia the Supreme Court "interpreted" in a decision that freedom of speech is a right, but not because it is in their books, just because they gave that interpretation. Such ruling can be changed later like it sometimes happen.

For example in Romania, where the number of cases and deaths per million is low, there is no right; by Constitutional text there is a freedom of speech that cannot be infringed, but in practice we have laws that infringe it and they were not considered non-compliant with the Constitution. For example, anyone saying there was no Holocaust will go to prison, even if that is an opinion protected by the free speech article.

All other articles have a formulation "in the limit of the law", that means any law can limit any right. At the same time, one of the first measures of the Government when the lockdown was instituted was to announce the European Court for Human Rights that Romania is suspending human rights. Plain and simple, we have no rights, stuff that can be changed, suspended or taken are not rights, but privileges. Including the right to live, patients with chronically diseases were restricted to get medical care during the lockdown.

Therefore comparing USA with the rest of the "Western world" (Europe and eventually Australia, it is not about geography but culture) needs to take in consideration the situation of fundamental rights in the legislation: USA has fundamental rights, nobody else does.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#242

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> Like the current politicians or not, most populations respect their governments and are willing to support emergency measures in the short term.

This is certainly the facade presented by the international media, but it’s absolutely not true. I have family in some of the more media-celebrated countries, and their citizenry is absolutely not united in the way you’re presenting. Some of them have had their lockdowns legally challenged, legal analysis has absolutely not been favourable in regards to the legality, and attempting to pass zero-scrutiny emergency legislation is a pretty common theme. They’ve also prosecuted between hundreds and thousands of people for movement violations in most jurisdictions.

I remember browsing the international section of a certain large media organisation recently, they had one article ruthlessly condemning the measures implemented by the president of Poland, right next to one singing high praise of the measures implemented by the prime minister of New Zealand. I looked into the details, and the measures implemented were almost exactly the same, the only difference I could find is that police in Poland seem to generally be armed, while police in New Zealand seem to generally not be. I absolutely would not suggest anybody rely on the general tone of the reporting as some sort of gauge for how people are feeling/behaving in any particular place.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#243
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

How about one of the most similar countries to the US ? Australian deaths per million = 3.92 US deaths per million = 228.5 And the US number is likely to go to 500 in the next two months whilst in some Australia states it looks like COVID-19 is fully eradicated.

Why Australia in particular? I don't really feel like they're all that similar to the US.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the legislature resists, or the court doesn't grant the stay, that sucks, the bars and restaurants will open, people will get sick and die. Or maybe the Republicans will turn out correct and everything is fine. This assertion needs a citation. If this should be true either hospitalization must be so high that it overwhelms the health system, which was the original justification for the lockdown, or death rate mu…

Meanwhile, Sweden never had shelter in place orders, and they did not fare worse than France or Ireland.

Apart from the deaths in care homes

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about one of the most similar countries to the US ? Australian deaths per million = 3.92 US deaths per million = 228.5 And the US number is likely to go to 500 in the next two months whilst in some Australia states it looks like COVID-19 is fully eradicated.

Why Australia in particular? I don't really feel like they're all that similar to the US.

Other than Canada I can't think of a country more similar to the US than Australia.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lockdowns-are-destroying-America echo chamber and a republicans-are-killing-people echo chamber. These are probably both mostly wrong, but on the plus side things must be getting better because we're back to tribalism.

Here is what I don't understand. (I seriously don't, and would honestly appreciate some explanations or ideas. And keep in mind I am 100% on board with following any and all recommendations of the CDC.) When we were all sent to sit at home back in March, the word was "flatten the curve." The idea was that containment was no longer an option, as declared by the CDC/WHO. Epidemiologists were predicting that somewhere b…

Lockdown can't last forever and so countries or US states need a plan to transition away from lockdown back to a new normality.

That plan includes massive testing and tracing. It includes science and data. It includes sensible triggers for further action -- if we start seeing more infections in the community we slow down the transition to normality.

I don't know much about the US but it feels like a lot of this is really hard to do.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there's much less support for Executives acting alone. We have a republican form of government where only the legislative branch can pass criminal statutes. In this case the Wisconsin Legislature sued to preserve its powers and prerogatives, as well it should. That does not mean that it won't be amenable to passing supporting statutes.

> Yes, but there's much less support for Executives acting alone. The whole point of having an executive is for a single person to act alone and decisively, especially in times of crisis. In the midst of an emergency is not the time for legislative subcommittees to endlessly debate.

> The whole point of having an executive is for a single person to act alone and decisively, especially in times of crisis.

Within the confines of the powers granted to the executive by law. The legislative branch grants such powers to the executive to act. Where th executive goes beyond that, the judicial branch rules against the executive branch. Checks and balances.

> In the midst of an emergency is not the time for legislative subcommittees to endlessly debate.

Man I hope Trump doesn't read this and get ideas. You are essentially saying that the executive branch should be given dictatorial powers now. Do away with checks and balances? Is that what you really want? Historically emergencies and crises have been used to justify tyranny and it's scary to see how the fearful yearn for it.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything about the comment above is totally incorrect when it comes to the law in the US. Just to give you a taste of how wrong this is: the case isn't even about an executive order by a governor! It's about the rulemaking of the Secretary of the Department of Health Services. Not only is the parent wrong, the opinion actually goes out of it's way in the first paragraph to say this! "This case is not about Governor…

Law is what should happen, politics is what does happen. I doubt many in Wisconsin are interested in the constitutional subtleties, just as they're not interested in how the "spontaneous" activism and protests have been coordinated by astroturfing. The bottom line is that this will be marketed as a blow for individual freedom against oppressive government interference, and that marketing frame will be an expedient an…

Add a short squeeze on the dollar and you have the perfect storm.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#249
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why Australia in particular? I don't really feel like they're all that similar to the US.

Other than Canada I can't think of a country more similar to the US than Australia.

I feel like there are a lot of pandemic relevant factors that are pretty different. 25m people vs 300m. Island nation, less international travelers, very different climate during the opposite season.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#250
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brit here. By and large we have the rights we want. Some rights we have voluntarily abrogated in order to meet what we believe to be more important responsibilities. These are legitimate decisions for a democratic nation to make.

> By and large we have the rights we want. And I assume you fool yourself into not wanting any of the rights you don't have, my fellow subject of the crown? Won't it be fun to be able to teach a pug to do a nazi salute once in a while?

You're allowed to teach your pug to do Nazi salutes. You're not allowed to film yourself saying "gas the Jews" 20 times while showing your dog doing Nazi salutes. [EDIT...and then broadcast this to your YouTube channel]

He went to court and he could have tried a freedom of speech defence but he chose not to.

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