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Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

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Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#241

Post by Wowfunhappy »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #200
biztos wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at a company where the interview process was basically "ask them about their experience, successes, and failures, and do whatever technical screen you feel works." Other than asking about failures (not everyone does) it was just "eh, wing it, tell us what you think." The hiring manager had to then weigh the responses and convince his/her manager if it was a go (we once rejected someone on ethical grounds aft…

> I worked at a company where the interview process was basically "ask them about their experience, successes, and failures, and do whatever technical screen you feel works." I'm part of another online community that has a strong emphasize on social justice issues. These "just wing it" hiring practices are one of their biggest complaints about tech companies. There's a perception that the less well-defined and struct…

I have a very simple solution to this problem. It frequently evokes an instinctual negative reaction, for understandable reasons, but I truly believe it would be both equitable and effective. Ready?

You want your company to be 50% women? Tell your teams that at least 50% of their hires must be women. That's it.

To me, formalizing the quota but keeping the overall hiring process looser makes a lot more sense than the other way around. A quota is dead easy, and a formal process is hard for all of the reasons discussed.

A quota is not "hiring people just because they're female/black/gay/etc"—it's a way to make us more effective by preventing us from overlooking good people. If we're naturally inclined to skip people who are black, then we need a process to counterbalance our natural tendencies. And of course, recognizing and taking advantage of an undervalued resource is good for business.

If there are legal issues with a quota (I'm legitimately not sure whether there are), then the law ought to be changed.

---

50% women may be the wrong number because of the demographics of computer science majors or what have you. It was just an example. Choose a number in good faith that you believe represents the potential population of good hires.

One simple solution might be to have your quota match the demographics of your job applicants. But this decision bares more thought than I'm qualified to provide.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#242

Post by thebean11 »

achievingApathy wrote: post #238

I will never forget the time I was given a coding "challenge" and sent home with the instruction to send it back whenever I felt it was complete. This sent my OCD into overdrive, of course. For the better part of two days straight I coded my heart out and came up with this (what I thought perfect) robust system with all the bells and whistles. Heard nothing back. At all. My calls into the recruiter went unreturned an…

Name the company

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#243

Post by jimthrow »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #240

I've mentioned this before. I have a portfolio that consists of six figures LoC of code, across dozens of open-source repos; most of which I am the 100% sole author. I've written a fairly large open-source system that is rapidly becoming the world standard for a specific (rather small) demographic. It deliberately uses old and rather primitive technology (which is a big reason for it becoming a standard). I've writte…

When you get rejected, it’s not about you. There’s just too many high quality candidates and too few positions. It’s just the inevitable outcome of a vast oversupply of talent

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#244

Post by juped »

karatestomp wrote: post #177
watwut wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How it happened?

I tend to basically forget how to use a computer when people are watching. To prep for interviewing I also have to try to memorize a bunch of stuff about some relevant language because otherwise, without surrounding stuff to crib from, I'll straight-up forget basic shit about it, and that doesn't always stick. I'm talking like "what does method invocation look like in this language?" Under pressure it can and does ha…

This is a really common experience. Work samples were supposed to be the answer to this, though I've had really awful experiences with work-sample companies.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#245

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

jimthrow wrote: post #243
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #240

I've mentioned this before. I have a portfolio that consists of six figures LoC of code, across dozens of open-source repos; most of which I am the 100% sole author. I've written a fairly large open-source system that is rapidly becoming the world standard for a specific (rather small) demographic. It deliberately uses old and rather primitive technology (which is a big reason for it becoming a standard). I've writte…

When you get rejected, it’s not about you. There’s just too many high quality candidates and too few positions. It’s just the inevitable outcome of a vast oversupply of talent

I'm not so sure about that. The lobbying for more H1Bs seems to indicate otherwise.

I am quite aware that most positions are for folks that don't have my level of expertise.

I just love designing and writing software; especially software that connects to devices. I'll do it; whether or not anyone pays me.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#246

Post by achievingApathy »

jimthrow wrote: post #243
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #240

I've mentioned this before. I have a portfolio that consists of six figures LoC of code, across dozens of open-source repos; most of which I am the 100% sole author. I've written a fairly large open-source system that is rapidly becoming the world standard for a specific (rather small) demographic. It deliberately uses old and rather primitive technology (which is a big reason for it becoming a standard). I've writte…

When you get rejected, it’s not about you. There’s just too many high quality candidates and too few positions. It’s just the inevitable outcome of a vast oversupply of talent

But then collectively as a labor force, where do we go from here? We can't all dumb ourselves down - or won't, and it seems to me that people understand what it is we do less and less.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#247

Post by thebean11 »

vsareto wrote: post #184
chad_strategic wrote: post #76

I have always hated software engineering interviews. This is a popular topic on this site, but nothing ever changes. Not sure as I would call them dystopian, I generally thought they were a chance for a senior dev to parade his ego. I could tell stories... (As I'm sure everybody else...) I used to take interviews and I always knew the outcome. "Sorry you are self taught, we only want people with CS degrees." "Or you…

Btw you have a missing table error at the page: http://www.strategic-options.com/trade/portfolio/hardline (this is the Portfolio button URL in the nav bar)

Probably shouldn't be exposing internal server errors in your front end

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#248

Post by achievingApathy »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #245
jimthrow wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you get rejected, it’s not about you. There’s just too many high quality candidates and too few positions. It’s just the inevitable outcome of a vast oversupply of talent

I'm not so sure about that. The lobbying for more H1Bs seems to indicate otherwise. I am quite aware that most positions are for folks that don't have my level of expertise. I just love designing and writing software; especially software that connects to devices. I'll do it; whether or not anyone pays me.

No one wants to buy the cow when they get the milk for free. :)

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#249

Post by ScottFree »

From TFA: "“WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?!?”, my inner monologue screamed. My thoughts spiraled out of control: “YOU’VE JUST RUINED YOUR CAREER! WHY DID YOU HAVE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT ALL!? THEY ARE ALL GOING TO JUDGE YOU TO NO END! YOU FORGOT TO DOCUMENT THAT ONE FUNCTION YOU ARE REALLY PROUD OF IN THAT ONE GITHUB REPO AND THEY ARE ALL GOING TO SEEEEE IIIIIITTTTT!!!!”"

Haha, that reminds me of the old days of Slashdot, immortalized is this early 00's webcomic:

https://www.pyrocam.com/files/images/clanbob.dundundun.dontt...

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#250

Post by lubujackson »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #214
52-6F-62 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By standardizing the hiring process aren’t you then just optimizing for a very specific perception and/or perceptional ability? Isn’t that at the core of principles relating to diversity in the first place? I personally find some of the current (if I can call them) standards of tech hiring to be very narrow in which skills and capabilities they test. It presumes a lot—particularly that one has time and resources to c…

> I personally find some of the current (if I can call them) standards of tech hiring to be very narrow in which skills and capabilities they test. What would you propose as an alternative? I’ve been involved in training new engineering managers how to hire and interview. Everyone starts with the best intentions, but reality quickly forces some compromises. The bottom line is that you only have a number of hours in w…

Honestly, the "coding" is rarely the issue. For most software engineering roles you generally want someone who can: understand problems, figure out possible solutions, decide on which is best, communicate why it is best and (importantly) be flexible when the company wants you to do some other solution. Meet all those requirements and you are a useful member at most companies.

I think a general chat about a broad problem and the interviewee's thought process of how they would approach it can tell you much more than whiteboarding some memorized algorithm.

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