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Facebook's PR feels broken

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Re: Facebook's PR feels broken

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comment talking about bias, only mentions Fox News. Welcome to hell (imo, this is what you get when you don't teach people how to argue and feed them too many Disney films). No, the press shouldn't be regulated. Yes, bias is normal. No, Fox News doesn't "swing public opinion" (they reflect views that already exist, and pander to them). Life is difficult, you have to think for yourself.

You seem to be arguing two different things: first, Fox News does not influence public opinion; second, that it shouldn't matter if they do because adults should think for themselves. The second is fundamentally a subject view of the world, so you are neither right nor wrong. I disagree with you strongly. We should be concerned about things that harm the our civic health even if we ourselves to blame for them. I thin…

First, I didn't say anything about whether it should matter whether Fox News does or doesn't influence public opinion. I don't have an opinion (that naturally depends on whether you think Fox News is "right" or "wrong").

Second, you confusion on personal choice is quite palpable. You can have concern about a topic but not take responsibility for that. Those are two very different statements because the latter begs the question: who takes responsibility? From the tone of your answer, the suggestion is "wise people like me" (as latter comments will find, modesty is not something that pervades your thinking). Great, that is the dictator's charter...and that is also not subjective (again, you are mostly confused about this topic).

Third, as you appear to understand the study that you quote is not an RCT. There is an unknown level of selection bias, you do not mention (unsurprisingly) whether this was overcome in the study. The study used differences-in-differences, this will overcome selection bias with some caveats.

Fourth, it says nothing about the mechanism for this process. Again, you are still assuming that persuasion works in the way you feel it works...but we know that voting behaviour is mostly determined by other factors, some of which weren't controlled for in the study. And you believe too, that because the election result was close this was the deciding factor? Another extraordinary assumption with no evidence.

Fifth, citations mean nothing. The only evidence on this subject is that people do not think clearly, academics are largely left-leaning and are subject to all the same biases as the rest of us. Sorry.

Sixth, there is not fifty years of research into this. This is the kind of lazy, exaggerated claim that people who have no knowledge of the area but with strong preconceptions often make. You seem to believe that you are hyper-rational, and that you only believe in things with evidence so end up making the completely false, bombastic claim that there is fifty years of research behind your claims. I will make this simple: you are talking to someone who has done postgrad work in politics, no such evidence exists. This isn't even something about which you can produce very solid research (#8). You can model voting behavior very well...but it includes no factors like exposure to Fox News.

Seventh, something that you need to understand is that there is no point arguing with people like yourself. It is actually far easier to get through to people who have no education. The absolute worst people in the world to argue with are people who believe they are educated (although often not about the relevant area) because they believe that there is evidence for their feelings. They do not believe they think irrationally but everyone does. My point about "Welcome to hell" is: bias occurs to everyone but is only applied to groups that the observer disagrees with...this kind of position never changes (and later in life, they come to think about people on the other side too).

Eighth, the view about Fox News affecting an election isn't subjective. It is something that we can produce knowledge on but it is fundamentally unknowable. It is important to think about this and understand why it is the case. Academics, particularly within economics, do not understand this and it has led to lots of pointless work.

Ninth, I would like to hear precisely how you discovered this paper. Was it something like: google "fox media bias" -> find paper confirming belief?

Tenth, you are looking at this subject in a very unproductive way (again, because you are biased...in fact, you almost entirely missed the point of what I said). Everything is biased. Other news stations in the US are biased. This has been going on for longer than the US has been a country (political pamphlets started appearing in the late 16th century). Most people are not going to think for themselves but that option has to be left open to them. I live in the UK, and we have had massive issues with this because certain media sources have started producing "fact-check" services...inevitably, we now spend as much time fact-checking the fact-checkers who largely produce news that is just as factually inaccurate (in my experience, it is often more inaccurate, ref #7). The only reason people get angry about this topic is because they view one side as wrong, and another side as right...rather than the reality which is both sides are biased equally (again, this is a fairly well-understood aspect of human nature...thinking otherwise is a sign of bias).

Re: Facebook's PR feels broken

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be arguing two different things: first, Fox News does not influence public opinion; second, that it shouldn't matter if they do because adults should think for themselves. The second is fundamentally a subject view of the world, so you are neither right nor wrong. I disagree with you strongly. We should be concerned about things that harm the our civic health even if we ourselves to blame for them. I thin…

What a thoughtful and well articulated reply (sincerely). I hope some day one of my stupid opinions gets this treatment.

Understanding that everyone is biased is not a "stupid" opinion. It is reality. Thinking otherwise is certainly a very common belief, and quite "stupid" indeed (the hallmark of stupidity is thinking you are becoming more intelligent, the stupider you become).

Re: Facebook's PR feels broken

#243
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What makes you more qualified to judge whether the public perception was accurate as compared to someone who actually worked there - an "FB vet" in your own words? For starters, most of us here don't benefit financially from putting a positive spin on disasters at Facebook. As the Upton Sinclair saying goes, it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.…

> I've not talked to Facebook employees personally but I've witnessed the same degree of delusion at other large tech companies. Some are straight-up like a cult with employees willing to defend just about anything their company does regardless of how hazardous it was. Which is even more baffling if one takes into consideration that these are usually salaried employees working there only for a few years with no perso…

> But it kind of bugs me that someone not having the same views is branded in such a way, as if somehow clearly you know the truth, so anyone who isn't automatically on your side must be delusional/evil in some way.

That's not what I believe at all. I've had plenty of discussions in my life with people from all kinds of sectors and the tech industry, in particular, FAANG employees in my experience stand out in this way. If you talk to someone from the Big 4 like PWC I never exactly got the impression that they're overly attached to their companies point of view.

Tech companies have very cleverly fostered some sort of ideological atmosphere among their employees that makes them defensive about their wrongdoings, and they have long pushed the idea that they're not just vehicles to create profit for shareholders but on world-saving missions.

As another example, remember when Uber essentially spammed mayor DeBlasio's office through their app in an attempt to undermine regulation and to effectively get ahead of the law through a harassment campaign? At that time I talked to Uber employees and a good chunk defended it.

Can you imagine any ordinary industry acting like this?

Re: Facebook's PR feels broken

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone who worked at Facebook for the better part of a decade responded that they felt the media coverage was unfair to Facebook. You were suprised by this response because from an outsider's perspective you felt that Facebook employees should be apologetic? What makes you more qualified to judge whether the public perception was accurate as compared to someone who actually worked there - an "FB vet" in your own wor…

>What makes you more qualified to judge whether the public perception was accurate as compared to someone who actually worked there - an "FB vet" in your own words? For starters, most of us here don't benefit financially from putting a positive spin on disasters at Facebook. As the Upton Sinclair saying goes, it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.…

As a FB employee, I hear this sometimes - I can't take your point of view as you work at FB, instead of debating the fact straight up. It's just an Ad Hominen attack in a different form.

Re: Facebook's PR feels broken

#245
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I gather, Facebook did have a compliance program in place to ensure that data was only shared with those that met its usage policies. Aleksandr Kogan was working at the University of Cambridge at the time, so the claim that he was using this data for academic purposes would seem credible to Facebook. Here are a couple sources that state that Kogan told Facebook that the data was to be used for academic purp…

> From what I gather, Facebook did have a compliance program in place to ensure that data was only shared with those that met its usage policies. Aleksandr Kogan was working at the University of Cambridge at the time, so the claim that he was using this data for academic purposes would seem credible to Facebook As though simply working at a university is sufficient reason to trust someone.

You would be surprised. One of the other criticisms currently is that FB doesnt share data with academics to do research as freely as academics would like.

Re: Facebook's PR feels broken

#246
post #35

This part really struck me: > It feels like finance in 2009. > One one side, you had smart, ambitious people who ended up there simply because you were told to go. On the other, you had the classic Gordon Gekko-ish types reciting Liar’s Poker anecdotes ad nauseam. > Enter the crisis and everyone was equally tarred as the bad guys. The former have slowly made their way out (mostly over to tech), while the latter remai…

Were we ever "too critical" of the banks? ISTM we just gave them a bunch of money so they could afford to foreclose on everyone in an orderly manner, and then forgot about the whole thing. They're all still "too big to fail", which is more a statement about political corruption than about the economy. I wouldn't be disappointed if FB would have to actually fix their problems in order to escape criticism...

Re: Facebook's PR feels broken

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Choosing to give away your property to third parties is not comparable to being robbed. Facebook collected the data on unsuspecting users and proceeded to willingly give away the data. Thus Facebook is responsible for what comes out of it. There is no way around it, and it boggles the mind how this fact is brushed aside. This crucially omits the part where Cambridge Analytica lied about the purposes of the data tha…

Why didn’t Facebook sue Cambridge Analytica into oblivion?

Cambridge Analytica claimed that they had deleted the data they collected.

Re: Facebook's PR feels broken

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason groups and corporations don't have voting rights, they shouldn't be able to monopolize speech by drowning out all others. Additionally, money is not speech. We disallow politicians directly giving people money to vote for them - why would we do that, since the politicians trade is in speech, he's simply delivering stump speech in the form of a $100 bill to his potential constituents.

Money is not speech, but speaking publicly on a scale larger than a literal soap box on a street corner has never been free. Banning spending money to express oneself is banning expression just like banning paying for raw milk is banning raw milk. And groups do have voting rights. That's how Congress works. The U.S. is a republic.

Are you saying congress voting on legislation is akin to a corporation voting on members of Congress?

Re: Facebook's PR feels broken

#250
post #15

It still amazes me that the line of reasoning they publicly went with, around their decision not to fact check political advertisements, is that no one company should have that amount of power. The logical conclusion of their own argument is that Facebook should be broken up.

I don't see the logical conclusion of breaking up from that. Even if you have 2 separate companies - Instagram and Facebook - neither should have that power. Twitter shouldnt be deciding what is political advertising either.

The logical conclusion is that the government steps in write laws on what social media should do.

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