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Working for a startup makes less sense

zainamro.com

241–250 of 392 posts

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of being rude, you could try to formulate your point without attacking a straw man.

What you're saying basically amounts to "people are blinded to what they love by their need for financial security". This may be true on some level, but anyone can see through it with a modicum of introspection. Or am I giving the average person too much credit?

I'm not the original commenter, but I think you are vastly oversimplifying the situation. Most jobs are not black and white in one category or the other. There are people who will never be completely happy with any job, and there are local maxima, where one might not reasonably expect a better fit to exist.

>Or am I giving the average person too much credit?

Another consideration is that this is an irrelevant question for your average person, or even 99.9% of the population.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#242
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kubernetes is a solution worse than the problem. Microservices are unix pipes but slower. AI is linear algebra that costs x1000 because of the brand name. There is no revolution in software. We are just building crud as high and as fast as we can because the quality of developers tends to zero as the number of developers increases.

>AI is linear algebra that costs x1000 because of the brand name. Sure, but we've learnt to apply linear algebra to achieving things we could only dream of 10 (or even 5) years ago.

Current AI is still mostly trash of the high school level project quality, linear algebra taken to the absolute possible level of insanity.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kubernetes is a solution worse than the problem. Microservices are unix pipes but slower. AI is linear algebra that costs x1000 because of the brand name. There is no revolution in software. We are just building crud as high and as fast as we can because the quality of developers tends to zero as the number of developers increases.

> Kubernetes is a solution worse than the problem. I disagree. Maybe it's because we haven't gone "full Kubernetes" where every cronjob is now a Kubernetes cronjob, or what have you, but for all the complexity we've had to overcome, we've seen substantial benefits. For example, autoscaling instances of my data pipeline apps based on Kafka lag. Was it complex? Yes. We had to expose Kafka topic lag as a metric to Prome…

You don’t need kubernetes to do it, any cloud provider has api that will make it possible. Kube main point is declarative model, which comes with a big price (like sql had). Yaml - is error prone way to achieve anything.

Will see if history repeats itself and we will see be imperative systems.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your points are well taken, and I have thought about them at length because I like to build startups in areas where this situation is the norm. One unorthodox strategy, which I've discussed with investors, is funding early stage such that you can pay comp that BigCo can't easily compete with -- their scale works against them. In early stage, the absolute amount of capital is trivial (and there are trillions sloshing…

I think we may be past the point where even this would work - too many startups are offering deals that are transparently awful in a way that discredits the startup ecosystem at large. I've gotten a few early-stage startup offers recently and every single one came out to be over a 50% paycut (even accepting their generous valuations) despite the fact that I made it relatively clear where the total comp needs to be fo…

You are not wrong, and FWIW I am a force for sanity on the boards I am on. I am a comp realist and I will always pay for quality, I am strong advocate for that.

The behavior of startups is not intrinsic, it is the product of incentives. If I created a startup tomorrow, I am confident that I could pull world-class engineers out of FAANG. But to your point, I would not play games with compensation. I hire the people I would hire because they are clever, they aren't going to be fooled by bullshit nor would they respect me if I tried that. That is an essential quality of good startups that should not be lost in this mix.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you do 4 - 6 months of consulting per year then it's very doable, assuming you're a developer.

That means you are spending even less time on your startup. I've been there and done that. And despite eventually raising $20+M in VC (I was extremely lucky), it was a horrible idea that I've never repeated since (raising subsequent VC). The failure modes associated with this are well understood and nearly impossible to avoid. Short version: you can either generate project revenue or product revenue. You build a fund…

> The widely regarded truism that project companies cannot be transformed into product companies exists for a reason.

A lot of the best SaaS companies have actually come from consulting businesses that were productized. C.f.: https://startupsocials.wistia.com/medias/e6ttk04b9e?fbclid=I...

I think this strategy has a bad reputation because it usually fails, but what people forget is that startups usually fail anyway.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good summation of the current challenges with startups that are attempting to compete on technical merit. I know this first hand as I started a computer vision company right around 2012 when the "AI" boom was really picking up steam. I would never dream today of starting a very technical company because every major will poach your talent (happened to me), invest in your competitors or attempt to acquire you…

> I would never dream today of starting a very technical company because every major will poach your talent (happened to me), invest in your competitors or attempt to acquire you (some people don't want to be acquired). Damn, this is exactly what I want to do. Computer vision too. Do you have any advice other than "don't"? Would basing the company on the East coast near a tier-1 research university help with talent?…

Just an anecdotal data point, but some places have a vibrant tech scene despite paying jack shit. Salt Lake City, where I live, is one of them.

FAANG don't have offices here and don't offer remote positions, so no one is competing with them. As a result senior developers are getting like $130k or something, and seem to be happy with that.

Some people (myself included) don't want to move anywhere else even for $500k. So it seems like a nice little arbitrage.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#247

I've had a related discussion with a few VCs in recent months. Some kinds of startups are effectively impossible to build given current structural constraints on financing them, creating an adverse selection for startups that fit the classic model rather than startups with the highest expected ROI. Broadly speaking, engineers will work at a discount to market-clearing wages of maybe 20% if they really like the startu…

I think a solution is less hiring at early stages (until you can afford it) and having co-founders hyper-focused on what’s important to the business (the ip) and they build and do the work to get it or the gate.

This. I would even go so far as to say that if you can’t get the founder salaries up to market rate based on MRR you should either bootstrap some more if you’re really into the IP or product...or close the place down before you hire someone under what they should be paid.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good summation of the current challenges with startups that are attempting to compete on technical merit. I know this first hand as I started a computer vision company right around 2012 when the "AI" boom was really picking up steam. I would never dream today of starting a very technical company because every major will poach your talent (happened to me), invest in your competitors or attempt to acquire you…

Your points are well taken, and I have thought about them at length because I like to build startups in areas where this situation is the norm. One unorthodox strategy, which I've discussed with investors, is funding early stage such that you can pay comp that BigCo can't easily compete with -- their scale works against them. In early stage, the absolute amount of capital is trivial (and there are trillions sloshing…

I don't feel like a top engineer. I think am no way near that tbh. I rank myself as an ok-ish engineer. I feel more like a hybrid though and I feel like I am valuable to a startup as I can bring on the table several things which include some photoshoping skills, being able to build a comprehensive front-end, can contribute to ideas as well as manage a db, build an api etc (to a level).

The past 2 years I was working part-time for a startup as I am running a business of my own which is almost on autopilot and allows me time to work on other things as well.

After 2 years I realized the positive and negative sides of working for a startup that is hard to find out before working for one.

First of all there were 3 main guys running the show. Only one of them was a tech guy, the other two came from a business background with no tech knowledge wanting to build up a tech startup. Joining that startup as an early employee didn't mean much apart from getting close to 1% in options (which is nothing considering my contribution to the cause was worth way more but obviously 1% is an industry standard).

The work became increasingly more demanding, although they knew I had other things to do and I was part-time, I was asked to work more than what was normal and almost reached working full-time helping them out (which was stupid of me, I was sacrificing time that I could be doing other things). The paycut I took also from my previous part-time gig was about 40% which is almost half. The cause of the startup also started changing increasingly and although at the start I was keen to have the paycut etc it felt like I didn't belong anymore (thats important for others wanting to work at a startup to know. The idea is not gonna remain the same as it is especially with business people driving research all the time).

The only positive was that I got some more experience on as a fullstack than before as I had to work a bit more on aws and backend systems and also was using "newish" tech.

My honest opinion and advice to anyone that is willing to try out working for a startup is:

Don't compromise your salary and well-being.

Startups will offer you options which is usually crap unless you are a co-creator. If you are taking a paycut but you support and like the cause of that startup then ask for a bigger %. Realise that most likely the startup is not gonna vest or sell and generally think of your options as a gamble.

Its most likely that the chances of you making real money out of your options is the same as you winning the lottery. If you are asked to work hard and stupid hours, then reconsider your well-being and ask yourself if its worth it.

Also look at the composition of that startup. For me personally it was stupid thinking that 2 business guys having the biggest % in the company would ever work for a tech startup. They contributed in writing long essays and doing research all the time, but at the end they couldn't attract more engineers by paying shit salaries and giving out 0.2-1% in options. The product failed because it couldn't be delivered on time due to having less people working on it than it initially required, and because those business people in order to justify their own % to the company were going on heavy research and constantly deciding shift changes on the product completely out of the blue just because they had nothing else to work on. (we were supposed to release within the 1st year which would be a year ahead of our competition. We released after 2 years which gave competition the lead of releasing before us and a much better product)

All in all - don't sacrifice your salary, thats how you feed yourself and your family and someone elses weird-ass dream is not gonna make you silly money out of the blue. And also remember that working should be taking some part of your day, but you also have one life and working your ass off for someone elses shitty dream aint worth it.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#249
I work for startups because generally there's not useless word docs and red tape. You can have a fully reproducible engineering cycle without all the nasty forms.

I can't find the link but a while ago hacker news how to link to an article about useless jobs at large companies. Reminds me a lot of this.

Re: Working for a startup makes less sense

#250

I feel like it is hard for people to say what they truly love before they have at least $1M in their bank account. If you have FU money, your view on working at a FAANG vs building a startup can change. You will find it easier to know what you truly LOVE.

That assumes that the person doesn't change in the meantime. You might put your dreams on hold to solve the money problem, only to discover that you no longer have the energy or focus to accomplish what you could have in the past. End state: I wish I had done what I loved back then.
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