Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why do you, of all the people in the world, get to decide what is and isn't absurd? I get to decide what I think is absurd, because: a) I'm free. b) I would still value my opinion as good enough for me even if I wasn't. To think otherwise would be absurd, and the irony of being told this by one who wishes to impose their view upon others else they be othered is, at the very least, amusing. > It is if how I wish the…
Ahhhh awesome, so when you were talking about your perspective on the interplay of sex and gender you weren't implying that there was anything inherently, objectively absurd about there being 42 sexes, you were just implying you felt that was absurd for some... personal reason? By the way, there's probably way more than 42 since so many things play into sex characteristics, and some of the measures are continuous rat…
No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
241–250 of 257 posts
Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
1. These aren't masculine traits. 2. You appear to be seeking out a personal argument with me, I suggest you desist.
1. I wish they were incorporated more into male identity because then maybe the male suicide rate would be lower. I've made an effort to make it a part of my masculinity and so have my friends. 2. I suggest you abandon your quest to read "toxic masculinity" as some evil conspiracy to vilify masculinity.
Behaviour, not identity.
> I've made an effort to make it a part of my masculinity and so have my friends.
Behaviour, not masculinity. Masculinity is "qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men". I wish men would seek help when they're depressed but I'd rather that was a human trait than try and make it masculine through some Orwellian misnomer.
> 2. I suggest you abandon your quest to read "toxic masculinity" as some evil conspiracy to vilify masculinity.
I'm not on a quest, I dislike conspiracy theories, you didn't produce an example of non-toxic masculinity, and I do wish you'd learn how to stop daemonising those who disagree with you.
Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ahhhh awesome, so when you were talking about your perspective on the interplay of sex and gender you weren't implying that there was anything inherently, objectively absurd about there being 42 sexes, you were just implying you felt that was absurd for some... personal reason? By the way, there's probably way more than 42 since so many things play into sex characteristics, and some of the measures are continuous rat…
No one is arguing for disrespect of anyone so there's not much else to say about your argument, other than you might try showing more respect to those you disagree with in future.
Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
1. I wish they were incorporated more into male identity because then maybe the male suicide rate would be lower. I've made an effort to make it a part of my masculinity and so have my friends. 2. I suggest you abandon your quest to read "toxic masculinity" as some evil conspiracy to vilify masculinity.
> 1. I wish they were incorporated more into male identity because then maybe the male suicide rate would be lower. Behaviour, not identity. > I've made an effort to make it a part of my masculinity and so have my friends. Behaviour, not masculinity. Masculinity is "qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men". I wish men would seek help when they're depressed but I'd rather that was a human trait than…
Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Should this apply to other physical/genetic characteristics as well, such as ethnicity? Should Caucausians be able to change their physical appearance (via tanning, etc...) to Native American Let's try... > Should this apply to other physical/genetic characteristics... you can change your physical characteristics, you can't (that I can think of) change your genetic ones. > ...such as ethnicity? Ethnicity, hmm. I do…
>>>Unless you pin down what you mean by ethnicity, I can't even begin answer. Let's go with common genealogy or phenotype. >>>Ethnicity seems a social construction So in the absence of society you would not be able to physically distinguish between these two gentlemen [1][2] and would classify them as the same ethnicity? You cannot discern objectively-measurable distinctions between the appearances of these two faces…
> So in the absence of society you would not be able to physically distinguish between these two gentlemen [1][2] and would classify them as the same ethnicity?
They have different phenotypes, and are clearly distinguishable visually. Now, if they were brought up in the same place (say in the same town in the US), and both met a blind person, would the blind person be able to tell the difference?
Some white people choose to turn a darker colour with a tan - if they could go completely black, would it matter? (other features wouldn't change of course, but you see my point).
That's not a good answer, so let me try a different one. To me ethnicity matters because people choose to make it matter. The difference between a cis- and trans-woman does not matter to me, but it seems to matter to you. These things matter only if you choose to let them matter. And a few weeks ago I asked a trans girl out because I like her (answer: no. As bloody usual).
> Did he receive any LEGAL benefits normally given to large predatory felines? If no, then intervention isn't required. If yes, then absolutely I would oppose it.
More likely, did he lose human benefits and be eligible to be shot or put in a zoo? That's a good point, well taken!
> Elizabeth Warren [...] "internal" identity for legal gain
Legal gain? Didn't think she got anything except some vague cachet due to american indians being kewl. And because that is IMO crap because such identity is meaningless to me, she gets no cachet from me and IMO should get none from anyone else.
> Rachel Dolezal
Yep. But pretending to be black only mattered because it matters in US society.
> Both demonstrate that these aren't really hypothetical issues, but present-day issues crossing the spectrum of not only social issues but also medical and cosmetic technology (elective, plastic surgery, skin treatments, etc...).
True. And maybe I'm sidestepping the issue, but it only matters because people think it matters. Being a cis- or trans-woman only matters if people care. I don't, and I don't see why it should to anyone else (I'm not saying it shouldn't, I just don't see why it should).
> But honestly, if I were to elaborate on my position it would be a long, kinda-rambling mess, so I'll table that point of the discussion.
My position is as above - I don't care - but it would be great to sit down and talk with you.
> Every human is operating within the restrictions of their physical form [...]
Good point.
> Short guys experience all sorts of emotional abuse and nobody really gives two shits about them either
Actually I'm surprised at that. Once children grow into adults, they usually judge people more on what's inside than out. But again, it's what society thinks, and if it didn't care, it wouldn't matter.
Now for some easy ones:
> Should my friend declare that he is 6'1" because he FEELS taller?
No
> Should we update all of his government documents and forms of identification as such?
if he got surgically taller, yes, otherwise no.
I think you point is if a bloke feels like a woman, is he immediately one? I don't know. If he got surgery + hormones and transitioned, then yes.
But I can elaborate on that a bit. One person I know is becoming a guy. She prefers to be called 'he' but recognises that they don't look like one so doesn't mind when 'she' slips out. As they look like a woman but prefer to be referred to as a bloke, I will do what she prefers, but you would, or you wouldn't? I'd call it bad manners to go against their wishes and hurt their feeling.
Someone I knew referred to a very effeminate guy as 'it', as they weren't in his view male or female, so: 'it'. That pissed a few of us off.
It's about feelings. So to your next point...
> Feelings are ephemeral, fleeting, [...]
I disagree. Briefly, I had a large chunk of my life wrecked with clinical depression. That's pure 'feeling' gone wrong. YOu cannot imagine how much that hurts. Feelings are the core of our being, that distinguishes us from philosophical zombies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie Feelings are all their is that matters, because without feelings, there is nothing. We are computers.
> No. Life is hard. Get harder.
Many years ago I knew a woman who lost both twins at birth. Suppose that tragedy (she was suicidal. BTW nothing ephemeral or brief about that) could have been avoided medically, do we do that, or do we say to her "toughen up" and let them die?
Obviously we change what we can for the better. Centuries ago we lived with arthritis, gout, migraines... now far less so because we can do something about it.
So why should the feeling of being born into the wrong body type be different? See sysbin's answer for why (IMO) it isn't.
OK, I'm not going to take this much further because this whole subject is frankly going to take a day of discussion for both of us which don't have. I do not think you're wrong, I'm just trying to understand your view, and my answer above is... not good, I appreciate that, but it's my best shot. BTW, I really did find your answer measured and thoughtful.
Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
#246Earlier quoted context omitted.
No one is arguing for disrespect of anyone so there's not much else to say about your argument, other than you might try showing more respect to those you disagree with in future.
You think you aren't, but you are when you say the categories of "male, female and 3rd sex" are appropriate for simplifying the "absurdities". You should show people who fit in your "absurd" minority sexual categories with more respect in future.
It's not contentious that you should show people you're in discussion with respect, nor that you have not shown said respect.
Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
> 1. I wish they were incorporated more into male identity because then maybe the male suicide rate would be lower. Behaviour, not identity. > I've made an effort to make it a part of my masculinity and so have my friends. Behaviour, not masculinity. Masculinity is "qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men". I wish men would seek help when they're depressed but I'd rather that was a human trait than…
If you understood what toxic masculinity is you'd understand it entirely focuses on behaviour, and how those behaviours build male identity.
Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you understood what toxic masculinity is you'd understand it entirely focuses on behaviour, and how those behaviours build male identity.
If only I understood! Please, supply a single example of non-toxic masculinity that doesn't require your redefinition of commonly understood words and maybe I'll be able to understand better. You can hardly blame me for misunderstanding something you fail so badly at elucidating.
Wikipedia
Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
#249Earlier quoted context omitted.
You think you aren't, but you are when you say the categories of "male, female and 3rd sex" are appropriate for simplifying the "absurdities". You should show people who fit in your "absurd" minority sexual categories with more respect in future.
Whether or not they are absurdities is obviously a contention, and hence, whether or not they are being disrespected. It's not contentious that you should show people you're in discussion with respect, nor that you have not shown said respect.
Re: No evidence that testosterone reduces cognitive empathy
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whether or not they are absurdities is obviously a contention, and hence, whether or not they are being disrespected. It's not contentious that you should show people you're in discussion with respect, nor that you have not shown said respect.
So do you believe they're absurd?
I looked at the first two lists of gender identities my search returned and there were plenty of absurd categories (like Maverique and Novigender). In addition, the idea that public policy and law should revolve around people choosing their identities on a day to day basis is, I believe, unworkable, if not absurd. The idea that people may be compelled by law to be forced to use language set by others is not absurd, it's horrifying.
From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-49904997
> It is deeply disturbing that this is the first time in the history of English law that a judge has ruled that free citizens must engage in compelled speech
The true minority is the individual and this is the minority that is most at risk here.