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Richard M. Stallman resigns

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Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#241
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a witch hunt. This should have happened a long time ago. He is a creep, and has been problematic for years. “He literally used to have a mattress on the floor of his office. He kept the door to his office open, to proudly showcase that mattress and all the implications that went with it. Many female students avoided the corridor with his office for that reason…I was one of the course 6 undergrads who avoi…

Next up: Beanbag chairs become problematic and Silicon Valley implodes.

I think it's pretty obvious from the quote that the specific kind of furniture involved is not the main issue.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#242

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

> it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship.

It's not. Take it from me, a guy who predates social media by decades.

If you go back and look at what Gary Hart dropped out of the 1988 presidential race for, and compare it to what Donald Trump said on social media before, during, and after being elected President, there's just no comparison.

Racial, misogynistic, derogatory, offensive sentiments you can easily find being published on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, or most other social media platforms would not have passed muster in any mass-media channel or public conversation 30 or even 20 years ago.

On the positive side, social media has been a tremendous boon to marginalized communities like gay/lesbian/bisexual, transgender, heck, even furries. It has allowed like minds to find and support each other, and allowed the rest of us normies to see these communities for the constructive, positive forces so many of them are. I am convinced that social media aided in their growing public acceptance.

In fact, I'd say that social media has opened up the discourse so much that even the resignation of a powerful figure over controversial remarks about pedophilia--an outcome which would have been expected and commonplace for at least the past 70 years of U.S. society--are taken as somehow problematic.

In other words, things are so de-censored now that even the most anodyne and obvious objections to gross statements by powerful figures is taken as censorship. The Overton Window has moved way over to one side, but people still complain when they hit the edge of it.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the counter argument for what Stallman wrote? I've seen that the "press is going too hard on him", but, honestly, I think they were justified. What is the "big difference" to you? If someone, personally, said to me that that someone be absolved of a crime, because the other, coerced, party was "willing" at that moment, I'd seriously question their morals.

Mens rea ("guilty mind" aka criminal intent) is an important element for many crimes. People - generally - are inconsistent with regard to how much they think impact matters for a crime and how much they think intent matters. The law is also inconsistent, with itself, and with the opinions of the citizenry. In this case, US law (but not the laws of all countries) makes sex trafficking and statutory rape strict liabil…

>With all that in mind, I'm dubious that Minsky could have been approached by a young woman and not had some degree of mens rea. At the very least, Minsky must have assumed the woman was a paid sex worker and recognized at least some possibility that she was trafficked and/or underage. I can't abide the notion that a old man would have mistaken the invitations of an uneducated young girl as genuine attraction.

Lots of famous men of all ages are approached by groupies. Some accept their advances, some don't. I've never heard of any of them reporting the fact to the authorities.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#244

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

"Taboos" is an oddly mild way to put this. Why shouldn't a person who approves of raping children have to pause and consider "staying quiet" one wonders.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#245
In a different universe he and his child bride and animal lover etc., could have been accepted just not in this one.

That said: if he held those beliefs and ever acted on them, never raped, never engaged in pedophilia or had sex with a minor or a “willing” animal would it be so bad. He’d just be a crank like flat earthers, extremely religious people, bigots and racists and other fringe members of society what would have been the harm. I mean we went so long already accommodating him and his beliefs...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#246
post #47

I think it is unfair to hound him over his latest statement about sexual assault. He is absolutely right that the term sexual assault includes actions that are so different that it can be used to unfairly destroy people's reputation. And if you are going to call someone a monster, it is better to more precisely define what type of sexual assault he did. I myself was sexually assaulted some time ago. I was in an ordin…

Wild that you would conflate a slap on the ass in a nightclub with an underage girl in basically sex slavery being pimped to a 70 year old. And then going to court over it despite all the danger and pain that exposed her to. Do you think those might be very different things?!

The fact that those are very different things was the entire point of the post you replied to.

Conflating "slap on the ass" with "sex slavery" is bad.

Conflating "sex with an apparently legal, willing partner who later turned out to have not been either legal or willing" with "coercing a child to have sex with you" is bad.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#247

There are so many judgements on both sides, both in these comments and in the articles on the subject that have been submitted, but very little quoting of what he said in context. Where can I find what he said? Why is everyone talking about what he meant without quoting what he said so I can decide what makes sense for myself?

Vice has the full transcript and it's long, which is part of why people aren't quoting snippets. Quoting snippets is not better in this case than talking about what you think he meant.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-sci...

See also:

https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#248
post #14

I've seen some online cheering Stallman's resignation from MIT. I suspect they'll also be cheering about this resignation as well. But this is nothing to cheer about. Regardless of what low regard the man might be held as a person, he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. These are all hallmarks of scientific inquiry. It se…

> he's being persecuted for having expressing ideas, demanding proof of claims, advocating for objective standards, and asking questions. > The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims [2])” The injustice is in the word “assaulting”. Saying that sexual assault isn't assault is scientific inquiry?

It's also unjust to say that he was accused of assaulting one of Epstein's victims, when the only accusations are from people who inferred from "she was sent to Minsky's room" that "he said yes".

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#249
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because RMS isn't just another socially awkward engineer. He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. The reason for the higher standard is simple, leaders are entrusted with power and need to wield that power better than others. RMS has failed that test today.

> He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. I see plenty of political and tech leaders set extremely low moral standards. Why is RMS being used to set an example? Do you think RMS actually hurt any children? His comments are tragically inept - but this seems to boil down to being targeted by breaking headlines such as the New York Post: "MIT scientist says Epstein vic…

It's a useful deflection from further examination of the slimy tentacles of Epstein's influence throughout tech and academia. Stallman is not terribly well-liked, and made the mistake of shooting off his mouth and grabbing onto the third rail hard with both hands at an inopportune time. He's a useful scapegoat to sacrifice up to Molloch.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#250

There are so many judgements on both sides, both in these comments and in the articles on the subject that have been submitted, but very little quoting of what he said in context. Where can I find what he said? Why is everyone talking about what he meant without quoting what he said so I can decide what makes sense for myself?

https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...
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