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15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

nytimes.com

241–250 of 932 posts

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#241
post #217
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get the benefits that you would get from such a union (whether they see those as benefits is up to them): * access to single market and currency * federal loans/money * territory protection from other countries military intervention * freedom of movement (including study, work, living, etc) within all the other states of the union If states want to do some things differently that's why there are state level laws.…

They aren’t free to leave the union though. The last time the states disagreed on this a rebellion was put down violently by the north.

States were added by acts of Congress. It logically follows the same can be done in reverse.

But it needs to be on agreed upon and mostly amicable terms, or the state(s) desiring to leave will be unable to get the necessary votes.

The southern states trying to take their slavery and go home knew this for decades before, so they didn't even bother.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#242
post #174
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the EC I would argue that in most states, including California, your vote effectively doesn't matter at all. Unless you are in a purple state you basically don't have a vote, and politicians can ignore your entire State. So while the EC does empower some rural voters, in reality it effectively disenfranchises most of the country.

But this proves the point. The issue you are having at the state level is a dominant majority makes the views of the minority irrelevant. And to be clear, the EC does not disenfranchise all the voters in states like CA, just the minority voters. This is actually precisely what the Senate and the Electoral College is designed to mitigate.

it invalidates all voters. Overvotes are a thing. You can have 90% of CA vote against a candidate and it won't mean anything more than 51% voting against.

So roughly half of the votes in all non competitive states do not count.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#243
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counterpoint to that is that the Electoral College has transferred so much power to rural areas that we are no longer an actual representative democracy. For example, a vote in Wyoming counts 3.6 times more than a vote in California.[1] The people in California are not represented in the Presidential election; it would be more accurate to say that one-quarter of the people in California are represented. "Rural is…

This is somewhat balanced by representation in the other house of Congress. It’s not only the US which has to balance rural vs urban electorates. Some are even further down the spectrum like Japan where rural areas have even larger influence than cities compared to other democracies. But in a way it makes sense. Without people in the countryside the people in the cities would have little to eat. Most countries go to…

It would be somewhat balanced if there wasn't a cap on the number of representatives and there was 1 rep per N population. But that's not the case. So even in the House there is an imbalance.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#244
post #217
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get the benefits that you would get from such a union (whether they see those as benefits is up to them): * access to single market and currency * federal loans/money * territory protection from other countries military intervention * freedom of movement (including study, work, living, etc) within all the other states of the union If states want to do some things differently that's why there are state level laws.…

They aren’t free to leave the union though. The last time the states disagreed on this a rebellion was put down violently by the north.

Sure they are, in modern times. If there's an overwhelming majority that wants independence, a state will eventually secede. In a democratic or even a hybrid system, a country's politics, laws and constitution eventually change to adapt to overwhelming wishes of the majority.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EC is a check on populism, and very clearly still needed.

The EC never fulfilled that function. Faithless electors have never changed the outcome of an election. The notion that the EC exists to ensure that popular sentiment doesn’t elect someone deeply unfit for the office was definitely disproven in the last election.

Swinging it to Hillary would also have elected someone deeply unfit for the office.

I agree that last election was the perfect scenario for the EC to do its job. But who should it have elected instead? And, could it have actually done so without touching off a civil war? (Not a rhetorical one, not a metaphorical one - a real live shooting live rounds, dead bodies piling up, state against state and brother against brother civil war.)

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#246
post #67
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for rural representation, but people in rural areas essentially have their vote count more than people in cities, right? Cause that's the current system for us: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_w...

> I'm all for rural representation, but people in rural areas essentially have their vote count more than people in cities, right? Yeah but maybe that's a good thing. Otherwise you have a situation like New York where NYC gets to dictate everything since it's super high population density even though the majority of geographical NY state is farmers. So the farmers get screwed over by the interests of the city folk wh…

High population density = more people, more voters. Yes, I think thier opinion should count more than the less people, less voters of the rest of the state.

Land doesn't (shouldn't) vote.

> too bad, the city folk are in charge now.

You mean democracy? You mean 1 person 1 vote? You mean the majority? This is what you have a problem with? Go ahead and state that view, but let's be honest about what you are saying.

You think somehow people should be punished for population density. That their votes should be worth less, person for person, than a rural vote.

Why.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#247
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counterpoint to that is that the Electoral College has transferred so much power to rural areas that we are no longer an actual representative democracy. For example, a vote in Wyoming counts 3.6 times more than a vote in California.[1] The people in California are not represented in the Presidential election; it would be more accurate to say that one-quarter of the people in California are represented. "Rural is…

> "Rural issues" do not deserve special protection if that protection results in a tyranny of the minority. "Tyranny of the minority" gets this issue exactly backwards. The problem the Electoral College was designed to mitigate is a tyranny of the majority . > Why are the concerns of the people living in LAC less important than the concerns of the people in Nevada or Arkansas? What is it about their geography that ma…

> "Tyranny of the minority" gets this issue exactly backwards. The problem the Electoral College was designed to mitigate is a tyranny of the majority.

States have representation, done universally by popular vote within those states for their representatives in Congress. (if you know any states that are an exception, feel free to add). Most of the country, and the world, experiences elections by popular vote except for a single particular position.

The Electoral College is only for the appointment of 1 person for the office of the President. It is an aberration. Even when looking at the President's ability to appoint people, many other popular vote elected representatives have the ability to appoint people too.

This aberration was from a time when the non-slave population of the United States was 1 million people, completely coastal (although those states had widely different boundaries back then which stretched deep into Appalachia), and in some of those states only the land owners could vote.

The purpose of the Electoral College was a compromise, not part of the grand wisdom and design. A compromise that has been merely tolerable and now has been stretched to its limits.

The democracy we exported throughout the whole world for the next 200 years looked at our older iteration and said "no, we'll patch that".

US Electoral College has reached its peak of tolerance, and the inability to amend it is maintained by the states that are the very reason why the electoral college is intolerable.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#248
I think this is both a dumb move and unconstitutional.

Present day politics aside, allowing for pure demographic voting in this day and age is even more dangerous than it was in the early days of the republic.

States and regions have different needs that need to be considered in the governance of the nation. You can already see warning signs, the Democratic Party platform has been so brain dead, they even managed to marginalize union voters. Kansas and Wisconsin were progressive strongholds.

Changing the way we count isn’t a fix for that issue — fixing how candidates and parties approach the people is. A more productive approach would be to reduce the carnival nature of the election process... candidates shouldn’t be picked based on their ability to shuck and jive in Iowa and New Hampshire.

Direct popular vote is basically a beacon for reactionary politics. It’s easy to churn out old people to vote.

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#249
post #160
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for rural representation, but people in rural areas essentially have their vote count more than people in cities, right? Cause that's the current system for us: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_w...

That alternative is that the rural vote doesn’t count at all . Urban cities form extremely powerful electoral blocks in Congress which can pass huge amount of pro-urban legislation and pro-urban budgets. The rural areas have much less representation but at least enough so that they can perhaps dog-trade for policies that are important to them. Remember that laws pass on majority or super-majority rules in Congress. S…

The rural areas have much less representation

Isn’t this literally not true?

Re: 15 states are trying to make the electoral college obselete

#250
A hypothetical situation;

An amendment is proposed on the floor of the House to change the formula in a bill for how funding is allocated.

The amendment presents a pro-urban allocation which provides a greater share of funding for larger cities compared to a baseline per-capita allocation.

Urban center representatives stand up and argue how their cities need a higher reimbursement rate because the issue at hand is costlier to fix or more prevalent in their environment.

Rural representatives stand up and argue they need the baseline funding to run an effective program.

A vote is taken, and 54% of votes approve the amendment, urban center reps effectively pooling their votes to enact the funding paradigm that most benefited their constituents.

——

The moral of the story is that it’s a lot more complicated than 1 person 1 vote.

Often times policies may benefit a rural area over and urban environment or vice versa. One type of community benefiting and the expense of another. Cities already carry a massive voting advantage, because, that’s where most people live!

When bills pass on a majority vote, urban already wins over rural every time. The rural areas maybe can form blocks to help push otherwise divided city reps one way or another, but policy debate is already dominated by urban voters, despite the claim of urban votes “counting less”. The simple math belies the reality that urban center reps vote for pro-urban national policies and the rural states with 1 rep sit on the sidelines.

The last place these votes matter, even in the slightest, is in the EC in a closely contested election, and in the Senate. Frankly I’m not convinced more populism is any benefit, or that cities are particularly hurting from a lack of representation.

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