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The electric car as a talisman of false hope

jussipasanen.com

241–250 of 338 posts

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

urban mass transit is never used by the wealthy. the last thing people with ill gotten gains want to do is to be around others who can identify them and see with their own eyes how much they’ve stolen. and they don’t want to be around their own kind as there’s no honor amongst thieves.

They use it when it's faster

It doesn't get faster when cars are the priority. Neighbourhoods are built without consideration for transit, and roads sprawl out indefinitely into the countryside.

As long as the investment priority is in cars, transit will suck.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#242
post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

> His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. I read the article and didn't get that impression at all. I got: electric cars are an improvement, but don't fundamentally solve the problem.

I mean, "the problem" in the author's eyes is capitalism, technology and entertainment. His solution is that we need to get back to subsistence farming as our main way of life.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what the original author of the article is claiming from how I read it. He’s claiming that sure, take the 5k, but don’t let that fool you into believing you’re done. You still have to plan on finding the other 95k.

Sure but who is denying that you don't need to pay the other 95k? The article is arguing against a straw man. Nobody is saying that electric cars will be the end-all solution to climate change. Literally no one.

I'm seeing a few comments in this thread that come very close to saying just that.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#244
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, as indicated, it 'buys absolution' for the individual. That means they don't have to do anything else to feel they are contributing. Which shoots the moonshot in the foot.

That's a lazy, cynical argument. The core of conservatism is "People are awful". What if people aren't awful?

No they just have to be emotionally insecure, and busy. It isn't 'awful' to ignore 99% of the issue-of-the-day demands on our caring. Its practical.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem, as the author tangentially points out, is our over-reliance on cars to move us around. That’s due to the intentional choices that we have all made. If you look at the structure of suburban areas of cities in the US, you’ll immediately see that they are entirely designed the assumption of the existence of a personal car for YOU. You simply cannot get around without one. A choice that I’m grappling wi…

> The real problem, as the author tangentially points out, is our over-reliance on cars to move us around. And the author fails to explain why (in the context of climate change) that's actually a problem. Suburban areas have a disproportionate carbon footprint specifically because of ICE-powered cars being required to go anywhere; if those ICE cars become electric cars, and that electricity comes from solar/wind/nucl…

> And the author fails to explain why (in the context of climate change) that's actually a problem ... if those ICE cars become electric cars, and that electricity comes from solar/wind/nuclear/hydro/geothermal/etc., then... where, exactly, is the carbon footprint?

The author very specifically points that out:

> ...our cars primarily exist to connect things, things that require immense extraction and fossil fuel energy to build, run and maintain: roads buildings factories shopping centres suburbs cities airports and so on. It is not just the car itself that is unsustainable; it is our entire way of life and the system that underpins it.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#246
post #5
post #2

Honestly, I hope electric cars become commonplace just because of the reduction in noise pollution let alone PM and CO2 emissions. Furthermore, I'm not really sure what the author thinks we should do? How can we maintain modern civilisation without factories etc.? Reverting to some primitive state seems neither realistic nor desirable.

I think you'll be disappointed, tyre and air noise doesn't change much at speed with electric cars.

Many electric cars have a much lower drag. This means lower noise.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really irritating thing about the 'solve it all at once' argument is that electric cars, in a very real way, are the keystone that lets the entire arch support itself. Renewable energy sources are already the cheapest ways of generating electricity at certain times , the trouble is that those aren't always when the electricity is needed. Energy storage makes investment in renewables much more profitable. The prob…

The interesting thing about electric cars is that many of them sorry scheduled charging (my charging station also supports remote configuration of when I can charge). If my electric provider was willing (and able) to control when I could charge my car, they could use the the batteries to level out peaks in production to a degree. Off peak charging already exists today, however there aren't enough electric cars to mak…

Much easier would be for the utility to transmit the current price of power and have the car or charger charge the car when the price is below a certain threshold.

The problem is that the best time to charge a car is immediately after it has been used, so it is ready to go the next time. Who wants a half dead car sitting around?

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#248
post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

He also perpetuates what I call abstinence based environmentalism. It won't work for the same reason abstinence based sex ed won't work. You are not going to guilt trip people into being poor.

It's failing hardest in the developing world because do you really expect people in Africa, South America, and Asia to listen to rich Westerners guilt trip them into not doing what those same rich Westerners are doing? "To save the planet we need you to stay poor." The response is a predictable "fuck you."

There are only two possible futures:

1. We develop ways of running our civilization in a more sustainable way. This is a huge multifaceted roll up your sleeves engineering problem. Electric cars are a huge piece because they break a big part of our hard dependence on carbon based energy and free us to substitute other things. Anything that gets hot, blows, flows, or shines can make electricity, while ICE cars only run on petroleum. No, it is not enough, but the way you do things like this is piece by piece.

2. We adapt to climate change and other major environmental problems as they unfold.

Some world where people stop wanting transport and air conditioning and such is as realistic as the one where teens dont have sex.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is that this is an engineering problem not a moral problem. Environmentalists have treated it as a moral problem for 50 years and this has accomplished nothing at all. It reminds me a lot of the drug war.

Edit #2: I also see a similarity in the human reaction. When you shame teens about sex they still have sex but they hide it. Shame people about industry and they outsource it all to China, in other words hide it.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#249
post #169
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know what the #1, most significant thing any of us can do to reduce climate change? Have one fewer child. Nothing else even comes close. It’s a simple fact. It’s easy to do. But nobody wants to do that. It’s far less painful to pretend that we can keep the Titanic from sinking by making sure we sip our boat drinks from metal straws. The point of the post is that we’re trying to consume our way out of a consump…

>Do you know what the #1, most significant thing any of us can do to reduce climate change? Have one fewer child. Nothing else even comes close. But nobody wants to do that. What the heck are you talking about? Every industrialized nation now has negative population growth if you ignore immigration. People are having fewer children, and frequently, none.

So? I’m not talking about “industrialized nations”. I’m talking about you, personally.

If you elect to have one fewer child, you can drive a car everywhere and fly first class for vacation and eat a big steak every week of your life, and you’ll still be greener than your neighbor with the solar panels and the Tesla. Doesn’t matter what birth rates are in the industrialized world.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#250
post #182

Once we get self driving, there could be far fewer cars per person. If you amortize that part of the bar chart of emissions which comes from producing the vehicle and divide it by, say, 20, and continue to develop new solar and wind farms, the BEV looks really amazing compared to current non-self driving ICE cars.

I tell people who are waiting for self-driving cars to take the bus.
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