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Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

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Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say there is a "big difference" but logically they are exactly the same claim. Also, no need to "recommend" making "good choices" any more than you need to recommend breathing.

Not at all. One is saying that it's possible to get out of poverty by making good choices. One is saying that it's impossible to be in poverty if you make good choices. Subtle but big difference. I disagree with both statements regardless, but there is a difference.

If "good choices are likely to lift you out of poverty" like OP claims, it logically follows that "you are unlikely to be poor if you make good choices".

"There will be cases where it doesn't work" let's say that means 99%/1%. So the statements become "you would have 99% chance to be lifted out of poverty if you made good choices" and therefore "you have 1% chance of being poor if you make good choices". Whether you believe it's 1% or 0% the behavior will be the same. If a smoker gets lung cancer you will blame their smoking everytime even though there was a 5.8% chance that it was not smoking caused so 0% and 5.8% is not any different, why should 0% and 1% be?.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#242
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I lived in the London with the salaries they wanted to pay I'd be poor either way. It was enough to live in a tenement block. take public transport and eat cheap food. In the US I own a home, two cars, and support my entire family from just my salary. If I got cancer in the US I'd have be forced to live in a tenement block. take public transport and eat cheap food just like if I was "lucky" in the UK.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a "tenement block", but a typical tech salary in New York or San Fransisco isn't going to be enough to live in a town house. If you're in a city, you're going to be in an apartment, and that apartment is probably going to be in a block of apartments. >If I got cancer in the US I'd have be forced to live in a tenement block. take public transport and eat cheap food just like if I…

>but a typical tech salary in New York or San Fransisco isn't going to be enough to live in a town house.

That's true, but then I'd be talking about salaries that aren't double of what is offered in London but 5 or 6 fold higher. I own my home and support my wife and daughter by myself in a low crime suburban area in the US, that isn't possible anywhere I could find in the UK. Did I also mention I didn't go to college?

>But, no, you could end up in a far worse situation than that in the US. Medical costs are very unpredictable and bear no relation to your wealth. You could easily end up bankrupt and unable to pay for vital medical treatment.

When you get that sick you end up on socialized medicine, SSDI and medicaid cover those costs at that point. Also while you will receive medical bills you don't actually have to pay them while hospitals are not allowed to refuse you life saving treatment.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0], or in the belief that we live in a meritocracy. It is simply a foundational part of many people's worldview and nothing sort of experiencing similar traumas will make them reconsider. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

People like meritocracy because it simply appeals to the desire for fairness which luckily many people like very much. There is no further hypothesis needed to explain why some might like the idea. It doesn't have an inherit contradiction to a standpoint that the advancement of a society should be measured by how the weakest members are treated for example. The hypothesis you linked can justify monarchies which merit…

>..in many countries social security is in favor of older generations against younger ones...

Including in the US of course, in the form of Medicare. Which also disproportionately helps people already well off, because they survive longer and so benefit from it for longer.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a h…

My girlfriend recently moved in with me so we've done a lot of research. It's relatively easy to move here from within Europe, as in, if you move from an EU country you have a right to work and live here, and you get the same rights and responsibilities as soon as you register yourself as living here. If you want to move here from outside of the EU it's a whole other matter though. It boils down to two things though:…

How ironic that the “progressive” European welfare states have highly restricted immigration and America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined. The US also allows illegal aliens de facto residence assuming they haven’t committed a significant crime. We even provide free education. If those illegal aliens have a child in the US, we give that child citizenship and subsequently make the child’s family eligible for welfare benefits in the interests of helping the American citizen child.

I was a legal resident of France and two of my children were born there and they didn’t get French citizenship, nor even automatic permanent residence.

It is impossible to have open borders, provide amnesty for 20+ million illegal aliens, birthright citizenship while simultaneously having European style welfare. There is a very good reason EU immigration is so hard, the system would collapse if US style immigration liberalization existed.

You can’t have nearly open borders and free everything.

As far as a previous poster said about Americans and our empathy problem —- it is interesting that Republicans give to charity at a vastly higher rates than Democrats [1] and American charitable giving is vastly higher than the rest of the world. More of the donations for the Notre Dame restoration are coming from Americans than even the French. The US funds UN humanitarian orgs at profoundly higher levels than any other country. The US funded the Marshall Plan to help rebuild Europe from a war we didn’t even start. Where’s the European version of the Marshall Plan for former colonies of Africa? It seems like European countries are rather selfish when it comes to helping others while American is quite generous with foreign aid. Perhaps Europeans have an empathy problem? Or maybe a fiscal one?

Suggesting that Americans don’t have empathy isn’t entirely accurate. Many of us just don’t want the government doing what private charity should do. I don’t want Congress deciding what causes are “worthy” — using human misery as a means for buying votes. I’m sorry for people who have bad luck, but where is their family? Their church? Their local community? How is someone outside of my community or family circle my problem? And, the US does have welfare programs. Medicaid exists and serves the poor. I know, I once was on Medicaid for a year. Food stamps also exist: I know, I used that program in New Jersey for about 6 months. I am not sure what else we should be providing as a government. Government isn’t a charity and nor should it be. Certainly it should provide a minimal safety net to ensure people aren’t starving in the streets, but charity is really about the local community, local organizations, and local priorities. And giving to charity should be voluntary, not compelled at the point of a gun like taxes are. I highly resent someone that has been unemployed for literally years while I took whatever shitty jobs I could find to stay off the street. I also resent people that never cared about buying health insurance (for example the young and healthy that tend to avoid buying insurance,) then they get a critical illness and go bankrupt and blame “the system” when they chose not to buy cheap disability or health insurance while they had the chance, instead buying plenty of the proverbial avocado toast or #yolo-ing through social media while the rest of us were, as they say, “adulting.”

The other problem I have is when people claim that medical bills “bankrupted” them. Do we know what that means? That means they didn’t have to pay any of that money back. The debts were discharged by bankruptcy. It doesn’t mean they go to debtors prison, nor does it mean they even lose their primary residence. It just means their credit is ruined for a few years. That just means they can’t borrow money for a few years; they aren’t thrown into some Dickens novel and forced to beg on the street for more porridge. It means all of their debts are discharged and they get to start over and rebuild. I am pretty sure that most people don’t know what bankruptcy actually means, they just throw the word around like it’s some kind of bomb, hoping that enough people are scared and horrified by it that they agree to raise taxes in such a way to prevent people from ever failing — but then also never succeeding. America is a place we’re you can start over, you can rebuild, and bankruptcy isn’t some life sentence dooming you to poverty. In fact, it’s possible to have multiple bankruptcies and still become president of the United States.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#245

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

> Contrast that with a former friend who had a similar medical issue in Europe.

I also have "a friend from Europe", he's on government disability and it makes for a very basic living. Furthermore, should he be able to find work, most of that money will be taken away. He wishes he would've bought private insurance when he still had the chance.

Two guys from Europe aren't statistically relevant, of course.

> America has a real empathy problem. People won't treat others as they wish to be treated when they are in need. Being poor is an infection and they avoid you. It's not a need they reach out to solve. And being poor is very expensive. A society of individualists is no society at all.

I must ask you this: Have you reached out to private charity and been "denied"? Until then, I would not make this claim.

There's a difference between a society not caring for another and a society being forced into paying for one another's care through the government. The latter has nothing to do with empathy.

Furthermore, US welfare spending is not substantially different from that of most European countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_we...

Perhaps the US government is worse at spending that money than other governments. The healthcare system certainly is less efficient. That too has nothing to do with empathy. Even if the US population was against welfare spending, which I don't think it is, the spending is still there.

Lastly, in any welfare system, some people will "slip through the cracks". Reform is possible, perhaps you can find some meaning in advocating for that, identifying what exactly went wrong in your case and what would need to change.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#246
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a h…

What makes you think someone who can "work in tech or medicine" is somehow EU immigration eligible?

Because those industries are most in need of workers at the moment. And because those are the sorts of people I've known who succeeded (anecdata, of course).

But I am biased by my own experience of being unable to find a way to move until I skilled up in development. "Idealistic physics grad with a spotty academic record who wants to help the Earth" didn't cut it.

Also, they tend to pay reasonably well (though nurses are scandalously underpaid in too many places, which is shocking).

In many cases, there's a "if you can make more than X you can get in" provision too, generally with some fairly high threshold. Last I checked it was around 154,000 GBP in the UK for instance (remember that dev salaries in the UK and most of the EU, for that matter, are incredibly low compared to the US).

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#247
post #14

Who exactly is blaming the poor for their poverty?

Libertarians and conservatives, are we pretending otherwise?

Yes. Queue inevitable responses that nitpick very small exceptions to the rule, or allude to some higher level ideal while completely ignoring practical reality and voting history of these representatives belonging to either faction/party.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#248
Is he seriously comparing to Japan to the US? I would say it is far, far easier to get out of poverty in the states (I have and know many who have) than it is in Japan. The two cultures have vast differences in everything from family dynamics to education to politics.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#249
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a "tenement block", but a typical tech salary in New York or San Fransisco isn't going to be enough to live in a town house. If you're in a city, you're going to be in an apartment, and that apartment is probably going to be in a block of apartments. >If I got cancer in the US I'd have be forced to live in a tenement block. take public transport and eat cheap food just like if I…

>but a typical tech salary in New York or San Fransisco isn't going to be enough to live in a town house. That's true, but then I'd be talking about salaries that aren't double of what is offered in London but 5 or 6 fold higher. I own my home and support my wife and daughter by myself in a low crime suburban area in the US, that isn't possible anywhere I could find in the UK. Did I also mention I didn't go to colleg…

Tech salaries in NYC and SF aren't 5 or 6 times higher than tech salaries in London.

>I own my home and support my wife and daughter by myself in a low crime suburban area in the US, that isn't possible anywhere I could find in the UK.

I'm not sure what you're saying at this point. I grew up in a low crime suburban area in the UK. My Dad worked, my mom stayed at home. They owned the house. My Dad works as a programmer.

>When you get that sick you end up on socialized medicine, SSDI and medicaid cover those costs at that point.

Erm, no. You will not likely meet the eligibility requirements for medicaid. That's just wishful thinking. If that's how the system worked, medical bankruptcies wouldn't happen.

>Also while you will receive medical bills you don't actually have to pay them while hospitals are not allowed to refuse you life saving treatment.

They're not allowed to refuse you life-saving emergency treatment. They sure can refuse to give you chemo, refuse to give you reconstructive surgery if you've been badly burned, etc. etc.

It's astonishing how unaware you are of how the health system works your own country. America has a lot of work to do on this issue.

You really could suddenly end up with a $500,000 medical bill. It's tough to face up to that fact, but it is a fact. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/first-kidney-fail...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#250

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

You left out many important details in this story: 1. Did you have health insurance? If not, why? 2. What was your job previously? 3. Who signed the paper relinquishing the hospital of all responsibility of botching the surgery?
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