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The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

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Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#241

Post by dragonwriter »

manigandham wrote: post #240
jakelazaroff wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking about prevention or why voter ID makes sense in general; I'm asking how it enables measurement of voter fraud. We already have a record of everyone who voted and their address and identifying information such as driver's license number or social security number. What additional information does an ID provide?

How do you know that information is accurate and matches the individual? For example, for all those situations I described, why is ID required when you can also just provide the information instead? Can you walk into a bank and provide your info without verification? Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs. Otherwise, there is no "…

> Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs.

No, it doesn't; it is neither necessary (as such fraud can be detected by other means) nor sufficient (as even with an ID requirement fraud can be performed without detection) for that purpose.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#242

Post by manigandham »

dragonwriter wrote: post #241
manigandham wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that information is accurate and matches the individual? For example, for all those situations I described, why is ID required when you can also just provide the information instead? Can you walk into a bank and provide your info without verification? Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs. Otherwise, there is no "…

> Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs. No, it doesn't; it is neither necessary (as such fraud can be detected by other means) nor sufficient (as even with an ID requirement fraud can be performed without detection) for that purpose.

Ok, I guess I still haven't seen any clear details on this so can you please answer the questions I asked in this thread?

Why are other situations not an issue for requiring ID but voting is? How can we detect fraud by other means, and why can't these other services also do that? Does the fact that nothing is infallible mean it shouldn't be used? If you didn't vote but someone used your information, how do you catch that without some form of verification?

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#243

Post by baddox »

deogeo wrote: post #217
baddox wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides what “a people” is? You have a bunch of people in a geographic region, and some of those people get to decide that they are “the people” and that only they get to vote? Sounds pretty blatantly undemocratic.

> a bunch of people in a geographic region You make it sound as if they just happened to wind up there at random, and have nothing else in common. Geographic proximity is incidental to belonging to a group. The land they live on is merely one of their possessions. Allowing visitors does not mean they must share their sovereignty with them. To answer your question, in democracies, each person can vote to influence the…

I understand the historical reasoning for some of this stuff, but as long as the laws apply to everyone in a physical location, I think the only way to claim to be democratic is to let everyone in that physical location vote to influence those laws.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#244

Post by dragonwriter »

manigandham wrote: post #242
dragonwriter wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs. No, it doesn't; it is neither necessary (as such fraud can be detected by other means) nor sufficient (as even with an ID requirement fraud can be performed without detection) for that purpose.

Ok, I guess I still haven't seen any clear details on this so can you please answer the questions I asked in this thread? Why are other situations not an issue for requiring ID but voting is? How can we detect fraud by other means, and why can't these other services also do that? Does the fact that nothing is infallible mean it shouldn't be used? If you didn't vote but someone used your information, how do you catch…

Because:

(1) There is no evidence of an actual existing problem to be addressed by voter ID requirements.

(2) Because voter ID requirements in the US, past and present, have a history of being introduced as part of efforts, often by the admission of their own sponsors (though usually in venues they didn't expect to become public) to suppress voting by legal voters of particular demographic groups disfavored by those pushing the measures, particularly African-Americans.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#245

Post by manigandham »

dragonwriter wrote: post #244
manigandham wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I guess I still haven't seen any clear details on this so can you please answer the questions I asked in this thread? Why are other situations not an issue for requiring ID but voting is? How can we detect fraud by other means, and why can't these other services also do that? Does the fact that nothing is infallible mean it shouldn't be used? If you didn't vote but someone used your information, how do you catch…

Because: (1) There is no evidence of an actual existing problem to be addressed by voter ID requirements. (2) Because voter ID requirements in the US, past and present, have a history of being introduced as part of efforts, often by the admission of their own sponsors (though usually in venues they didn't expect to become public) to suppress voting by legal voters of particular demographic groups disfavored by those…

I'm afraid we've gone in a big circle here and I still haven't gotten any clear answers.

Why is voting less important than other services? If someone uses your information, how can we tell without verification of the vote? And if we can't tell, how do we know it didn't happen? And if we don't know, how do we know it's not a problem? If every vote is important then every fraudulent vote is equally important.

I'm only talking about ID verification for voting here, not other programs. If those programs are stopping voters then I agree that's bad, but that's a separate topic. And if IDs are required for so many other private and government services outside of voting, then aren't those services discriminating too? Right to bear arms still requires a background check so does that impede on people's rights? How does that reconcile?

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#246

Post by [deleted] »

manigandham wrote: post #240
jakelazaroff wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking about prevention or why voter ID makes sense in general; I'm asking how it enables measurement of voter fraud. We already have a record of everyone who voted and their address and identifying information such as driver's license number or social security number. What additional information does an ID provide?

How do you know that information is accurate and matches the individual? For example, for all those situations I described, why is ID required when you can also just provide the information instead? Can you walk into a bank and provide your info without verification? Requiring ID allows us to measure when fraud is occuring by individuals attempting to submit votes and data that is not theirs. Otherwise, there is no "…

[deleted]

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#247

Post by jakelazaroff »

manigandham wrote: post #245
dragonwriter wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because: (1) There is no evidence of an actual existing problem to be addressed by voter ID requirements. (2) Because voter ID requirements in the US, past and present, have a history of being introduced as part of efforts, often by the admission of their own sponsors (though usually in venues they didn't expect to become public) to suppress voting by legal voters of particular demographic groups disfavored by those…

I'm afraid we've gone in a big circle here and I still haven't gotten any clear answers. Why is voting less important than other services? If someone uses your information, how can we tell without verification of the vote? And if we can't tell, how do we know it didn't happen? And if we don't know, how do we know it's not a problem? If every vote is important then every fraudulent vote is equally important. I'm only…

Let's say the US enacts nationwide voter ID by 2020, and election day occurs without a single reported incident of voter fraud — i.e. no one tries to vote with an ID that doesn't belong to them. Did it work?

Well, maybe. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. In 2016, we were able to identify four cases of voter fraud in retrospect [1]. How does voter ID make this process more accurate?

Not having faith in our measurements for 2016 is also problematic. Let's say we uncover 100 cases of voter fraud after the fact with voter ID in 2020. Is this because we're able to better detect voter fraud now, or is there actually more? How do we know we haven't accidentally introduced a loophole that makes the problem worse?

I'm not really interested in a general discussion about "why does ID make sense for X but not voting". We can be specific: in what ways does voter ID improve our ability to measure — not deter — fraud? Because as far as we can tell now, it's already exceedingly rare.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-...

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#248

Post by duckMuppet »

winter_blue wrote: post #110
dfeojm-zlib wrote: post #31

Here's an example of what you need for a Delaware C-corp: https://www.incnow.com/delaware-corporation/ - Name of the corporation - Name and address of the Registered Agent of the corporation (usually a mail forwarding service) - Statement of the type of business that the corporation will engage in - Number of shares of authorized stock that the corporation will issue - Par value of each share - Name and signature of…

> Required by: Sections 214-216 PATRIOT Act of 2001 I looked at these sections, and they do not require the states do anything, nor contain any sort of reference to library cards. Besides, I don't think they have the authority to order states to collect library users' information, and then compel them to divulge this information to federal authorities, in a blanket manner. There is a limited set of enumerated powers…

Although I agree with you, the constitution now is largely irrelevant. For the most part, it is generally ignored by all three branches, except for when one political group can club the other with it. And once they do it, It goes largely ignored until it can be weaponized again.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#249

Post by manigandham »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #247
manigandham wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid we've gone in a big circle here and I still haven't gotten any clear answers. Why is voting less important than other services? If someone uses your information, how can we tell without verification of the vote? And if we can't tell, how do we know it didn't happen? And if we don't know, how do we know it's not a problem? If every vote is important then every fraudulent vote is equally important. I'm only…

Let's say the US enacts nationwide voter ID by 2020, and election day occurs without a single reported incident of voter fraud — i.e. no one tries to vote with an ID that doesn't belong to them. Did it work? Well, maybe. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. In 2016, we were able to identify four cases of voter fraud in retrospect [1]. How does voter ID make this process more accurate? Not having faith in ou…

This is the circular discussion I'm talking about. Without verification, how can you possibly come to a determination that it didn't happen? It is nothing but guesswork, so claims that it is exceedingly rare are unfounded. As I said before, verification would identify and therefore present real numbers that can be measured.

Also if we did enact ID checks, and zero fraud happened (perhaps because it preemptively prevented it all), how is that not a good outcome? Considering it went from non-zero to zero, yes that would be an improvement. What would be the loophole that introduces more voter fraud because of IDs? Can you please give me an example of this?

The comparison to other services and rights is critical to show bias and present a rational framework to tackle the problem. If the right to bear arms is not infringed by background checks, then it follows that the right to vote is not infringed by ID checks. Do you disagree with this statement?

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#250

Post by dragonwriter »

manigandham wrote: post #245
dragonwriter wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because: (1) There is no evidence of an actual existing problem to be addressed by voter ID requirements. (2) Because voter ID requirements in the US, past and present, have a history of being introduced as part of efforts, often by the admission of their own sponsors (though usually in venues they didn't expect to become public) to suppress voting by legal voters of particular demographic groups disfavored by those…

I'm afraid we've gone in a big circle here and I still haven't gotten any clear answers. Why is voting less important than other services? If someone uses your information, how can we tell without verification of the vote? And if we can't tell, how do we know it didn't happen? And if we don't know, how do we know it's not a problem? If every vote is important then every fraudulent vote is equally important. I'm only…

> Why is voting less important than other services?

I never said it was less important.

> If someone uses your information, how can we tell without verification of the vote?

Ant significant effort at voter fraud (and, even more certainly, more than one such effort in the same jurisdiction) will show up in a pattern of attempted multiple votes.

The absence of significant pattern as of this is itself evidence that no significant (even in aggregate) voter fraud is occurring.

In fact, even with Voter ID, that's how you'd identify fraud that gets past the ID checks.

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