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Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

bbc.com

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Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#241

Post by khc »

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #148
khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

This is a weak argument. The base response to a repressive totalitarian regime is non-cooperation, not support them and hope they will be marginally less oppressive. Any support legitimizes their actions and further entrenches their oppression

How has that worked out for Cuba, North Korea, and Iran? Or Afghanistan, Iraq until we invaded them?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#242

Post by khc »

pteredactyl wrote: post #206
yourbandsucks wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this comment, you're expressing concern that Google would be implicated by participating in the censorship, but you're not expressing any concern for the welfare of the 1.6B Chinese who would gain access to Google. I'm not OP but I'd consider that a very 'sticking your nose up' take on the situation. It seems to consider westerners' self-image as more important than Chinese access.

Your argument assumes Chinese citizens using Google is somehow better for them than Baidu. I have no idea. But I will not make the claim to know what's best for 1.6B, as you do. But to go down that road, I'd argue it's worse for the citizens. As others here have pointed out. Google's software enables advanced citizen tracking for the Communist Party of China. Prove me wrong though. Show me how Google China is better…

Yes as someone who has used Baidu, I am making the argument that using Google is better than using Baidu, at least Baidu as it exists today. It's possible that once Google enters China, Baidu would get better. But we won't find out now.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#243

Post by laughinghan »

dirtyid wrote: post #230
laughinghan wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment you're replying to said Air Canada, British Airways, and Lufthansa. I just tried searching for a flight to Taipei in all three of them, from California, and all of their autocompletes indeed mention China. You are also incorrect that AA / United / Delta removed references to "China" for Chinese cities. I just tried them, Beijing, Shanghai etc all continue to mention China. Only Taipei's autocomplete does…

I was initially referring to the Emirates Taiwanese flag pin incident, and other cockpit paraphernalia drama from a couple years ago. Airlines had existing protocol of scrubbing physical Taiwanese references when operating (i.e. landing) in China. I wasn't of airline site scrubbing Taiwan, which again, I don't see a big deal. Making countries recognize dejure sovereignty is only "bullying" if you drank too much US ko…

> The fact that US is the holdout in including China shows whose being childish.

I'm trying to understand your position. Is it that having ethical reservations about UN resolutions is childish, and the mature thing is to treat UN resolutions as ethically authoritative? Is it that resistance to treating Taiwan as a Chinese possession is childish? Something else entirely?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#244

Post by laughinghan »

dirtyid wrote: post #237
laughinghan wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China started internet censorship apparatus in response to calls of ethnic violence after the XinJiang riots a decade ago Who fucking cares? The PATRIOT Act was in response to the worst terrorist attack on US soil in US history. Three thousand people. I have friends who were in New York then. The Japanese internment camps were in response to Pearl Harbor. If an action is wrong, the impetus doesn't fucking matter, t…

Where did I deny Chinese censorship was used to suppress discussion? I specifically said I don't endorse how far the Chinese system went. The point was censorship for prevent violence has it's place, and the west now recognizes that. As far as information control in terms of individual freedom, folks in PRC can just grab and VPN and shitpost or find competing narratives abroad. Access is possible and not even inconve…

> The point was censorship for prevent violence has it's place, and the west now recognizes that.

???

The West recognizes what? The West now endorses Chinese Internet censorship? Western governments now also enforce Internet censorship? Did the White House start calling to Build The Firewall? What are you talking about?

> Access is possible and not even inconvenient.

The Chinese government spends billions of dollars on a system that doesn't work?

> Someone posted a western brand awareness and usage article yesterday, where 17% of Chinese internet users regularly use facebook and are aware of western perspectives.

Who cares about Chinese internet users' fucking Western brand awareness? I care about Chinese people knowing our own history, warts and all.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#245

Post by Fej »

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

It is not, strictly speaking, about censorship. Google is the best in the world at gathering information about people. If they operate in China, they will have to give over all that information to the Chinese government, of course. They have already built the largest surveillance apparatus in the Western world that has ever existed - imagine what the CCP could do with that?

Yes, Baidu already does this. But no one can do it as well as Google.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#246

Post by tracker1 »

bad_user wrote: post #210

I'm happy that Dragonfly is being terminated and I'm sure this is also the direct result of all Google employees who objected to it. To the Chinese people here on HN try to understand that this is larger than the welfare of the Chinese. China is now in a position to export its culture to the rest of the world due to its economic strength. It can, for example, force companies like Google to censor information to the r…

Agreed... have had several friends and coworkers over the years who are expat Russian and HK, and have no love for communism. Being born in the 70's and coming up in the 80's probably means some bias on my own part. I just don't want anything resembling that level of restriction from any government. I have enough problems with my own (US) govt, let alone adding a more repressive stream.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#247

Post by wurst_case »

bduerst wrote: post #239
gurkendoktor wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google had more business in China, the CCP could blackmail them into censoring their results in other countries as well. Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan, the laws being awfully vague hasn't helped one bit. Letting the CCP export its censorship back into the West in the hopes that Google will improve life in China is a hell of a gamble.

Kind of like how they pushed Apple to move their iCloud data onto local Chinese datacenters: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh... Or how they then nationalized the company that has access to all the iCloud encryption keys for accessing Apple user messages, pictures, videos, files, etc. at rest: https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d...

Yikes.

This is concerning but not surprising. After the Snowden leaks, a buddy of mine kept telling me that it was the tip of tmthe iceberg, that the private sector was even more dangerous than prism. I guess this is what he was talking about.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#248

Post by anticensor »

dpatru wrote: post #73
Kurtz79 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right to be forgotten gives the individual the right to have his data removed from permanent storage by companies, for whatever purpose: not sure how it relates even remotely with censorship. " filtering of information related to things unsavory to the past of any given country in the EU." Some specific reference to some EU government forcing companies to remove controversial information about their countries' past w…

> Right to be forgotten gives the individual the right to have his data removed from permanent storage by companies, for whatever purpose: not sure how it relates even remotely with censorship. Books are also permanent storage, often stored centrally in public libraries. Does an individual have the right to have information about him removed from books in libraries? Wouldn't that be a kind of censorship? The only dif…

No, right to be forgotten is not excercised via criminal courts. You have to reach the author of the book and make it collect all the copies.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#249

Post by dirtyid »

laughinghan wrote: post #244
dirtyid wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I deny Chinese censorship was used to suppress discussion? I specifically said I don't endorse how far the Chinese system went. The point was censorship for prevent violence has it's place, and the west now recognizes that. As far as information control in terms of individual freedom, folks in PRC can just grab and VPN and shitpost or find competing narratives abroad. Access is possible and not even inconve…

> The point was censorship for prevent violence has it's place, and the west now recognizes that. ??? The West recognizes what? The West now endorses Chinese Internet censorship? Western governments now also enforce Internet censorship? Did the White House start calling to Build The Firewall? What are you talking about? > Access is possible and not even inconvenient. The Chinese government spends billions of dollars…

Western social media companies are increasingly censorial, following Chinese censorship in spirit not structure.

If you're ignorant about how trivial it is to access vpn and outside info in China then I'm not sure to say. The firewall and grey legislation around vpns is calibrated that low information audience gravitates towards party line while those seeking information has access.

Usage not brand awareness. The numbers suggests more Chinese people are aware of western and Chinese perspectives than vice versa. Leading me to ask, in general, who is actually more informed? Being immersed in both media landscapes allows better critical appraisal of what is actually happening then to pretend that just being in a free media environment somehow makes one more informed.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#250

Post by aclsid »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #55
chrischen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any sort of heavy hand the West takes to “prove” that whatever it is that China is doing (censorship, communism, etc) is wrong/doesn’t work is going to backfire to the highest degree. It will entrench them in their already strong beliefs that the West is only interested in holding progress back from China (out of jealousy at their high economic growth). If you believe your system is better, then you really should not…

> It will entrench them in their already strong beliefs We tried the hug approach when China was prematurely let into the WTO. That backfired. Our concern should be, first and foremost, with our own morality. Helping a dictator repress billions of people is wrong, against our values, and should not tolerated by people in our society.

I don't know which country are you from, but I think the world has far bigger problems than to "liberate" China. Especially when the US turns a blind eye to a journalist murder because it was done by an ally.
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