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Libra, 2 Weeks In

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Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#241

Post by 0xDEFC0DE »

gruez wrote: post #235
0xDEFC0DE wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a blockchain thing. They can fork, but they aren’t going to do that if I lose $150 in Libra. If they can single reverse transactions, there’s really no point to it being a blockchain. If it’s refundable then they are just paying for the crime itself out of their own pockets. They will still need a human layer to verify theft has occurred and it isn’t a fraudulent claim of theft where just I stole from myself.

They don't need to form the blockchain to reverse a transaction. Since they control redemption and minting, they can simply refuse to redeem from the "losing" party and mint new units to compensate the "winning" party. >They will still need a human layer to verify theft has occurred and it isn’t a fraudulent claim of theft where just I stole from myself Or have something similar to credit cards where you're forced in…

What are Facebook redeeming? I don't think I'll need Facebook to transact with someone else for goods and services with stolen Libra. Goods can then be exchanged for USD and the theft is complete.

They can mint, and that's not a direct debit from Facebook's wallet, but it would devalue the currency ever so slightly.

But that raises the question of 'How much needs to be stolen before I activate the minting process?' If they mint for low theft values, then I can find a way to steal from myself and that's probably a decent amount of passive income. If they only mint for high theft values, then that only helps rich people who suffer the least from theft (unless they cram all of their life savings into it).

All of this depends on how Facebook works with law enforcement to manage the criminal parts of Libra. Working closely with them means we move closer to a corporate state. Working loosely with them means Libra is more vulnerable.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#242

Post by ravenstine »

api wrote: post #227
sametmax wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just privacy. Democracy in general. No cash mean you can't do anything that has not been validated by the state first. It means kids will have less options to foul around without the parents checking it. It means you won't be able to pay in a gay bar anonymously. It means any new (and hence controversial) political concept will have no way to financially grow to acceptance. It means no living off the grid. It mea…

There has never in all of history been totalitarianism like what is possible now. We are building the technical infrastructure for our own total enslavement. Of course it makes me wonder if this is just history repeating in some sense. People came to the new world in part to flee European monarchist tyrannies. Now people will go to space to flee the Earth technocracy.

> There has never in all of history been totalitarianism like what is possible now. We are building the technical infrastructure for our own total enslavement.

This is one of the primary reasons that I'm planning an exit from software development. I see most of what we do as being a useless waste, and at worst we're building our own enslavement. I'm fortunate to be working on something harmlessly entertaining, but I want to exit all together and start a business that will actually help people.

The unbounding optimism of technologists is pretty disturbing. We can see for ourselves how tyrannical those at the top of our industry can get, yet we are easily chatteled into helping them because of the paycheck and the prestige. It should become less socially acceptable for us to assist tech zealots who want to involve data warehousing technology and AI into every single problem and facet the world is facing.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#243

Post by gruez »

gonational wrote: post #232
mymythisisthis wrote: post #226

I've noticed that power tools (cordless electric drills) have started to become the currency of the underground economy.

Poe’s Law may apply here, but are you being serious? Please explain.

Presumably because power tools are high value goods that are often stolen by addicts to pay for their addictions. Then they make their way up the value chain. It doesn't really make sense though - they're not really fungible, they're pretty hard to transact with, and converting them to cash is tricky (how are you going to find a steady stream of buyers?).

Tide detergent is also used as currency, and it's better than power tools as a currency in all regards.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#244

Post by cesarb »

beefield wrote: post #208
Lucadg wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. This is exactly the problem with non cash transactions. Every single transaction, no matter how small, is recorded forever and shared with several governments and secret services. I never signed up for this. This is why we need cash and why they are fighting it.

The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations (i.e. negative interest rates). So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. I guess main problem is that to a very good approximation nobody wants these. Generally, the ones understanding monetary policy don't understand the n…

> So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates.

So what you want is... cash. But cash from a separate currency. This is identical to what we had here in Brazil in the 90s during the Plano Real transition: the cash everyone had was in the Cruzeiro Real currency, but all the prices were denominate in URV (a "virtual" currency, which months later became a real currency called Real). The Cruzeiro Real was suffering from inflation at the time, but the URV was stable, so to buy something with a price of 1 URV you might pay CR$ 864,14 one week and CR$ 1004,68 the next week (source for these values: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidade_real_de_valor).

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#245

Post by MH15 »

_7fvc wrote: post #154

Facebook is asking corporate interests of different sizes, big and small, to join Libra effort. They will all have equal stake, including the founding company, Facebook. It'll be the biggest, possibly only, corporate altruism experiment in history. I think they have a small chance of succeeding if they are willing to pump in billions of dollars without expecting any return.

Corporate altruism experiment Libra is a tool to control the global poor, not an "altruism experiment".

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#246

Post by shitgoose »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #196
shitgoose wrote: post #74

the moment libra is exchanged for fiat, it is under scrutiny (know your client etc). fbi routinely nails various e-gold enterprises, where clients exchange fiat for tokens and freely transact tokens across the globe. all it takes is to open a couple of libra accounts and send a transaction with "hurt as many americans as possible" in the details. a lot of people were busted for a lot less than that. imagine high volu…

The FBI has no jurisdiction outside the US and you are right that cash is more safe to use for buying cocaine, ordering hit men, buying child pornography, etc. Libra is probably not going to be popular for that sort of thing. The irony of a distributed ledger is that it actually makes enforcement a lot easier. Facebook will simply point to the ledger and tell the FBI that "everything you need to know is public inform…

"The FBI has no jurisdiction outside the US"

tell this to Vinnik, a Russian national who was arrested in Greece on behalf of FBI and extradited to US:)

if FB starts enforcing KYC, then the adoption will be very narrow - US and few other developed countries. even in US i doubt that many people will be happy to share their driver's licences and bank accounts with FB for obvious reasons. and without wide adoption there will be no libra "closed system" as you described. this is catch 22. i don't see how FB can pull this off. i don't even see any clear strategy behind libra.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#247

Post by beefield »

cesarb wrote: post #244
beefield wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations (i.e. negative interest rates). So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. I guess main problem is that to a very good approximation nobody wants these. Generally, the ones understanding monetary policy don't understand the n…

> So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. So what you want is... cash. But cash from a separate currency. This is identical to what we had here in Brazil in the 90s during the Plano Real transition: the cash everyone had was in the Cruzeiro Real currency, but all the prices were denominate in URV (a "virtual" c…

Yep, that is one way to do it to have an exchange rate between cash and account currency.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#248

Post by sametmax »

baq wrote: post #221
sametmax wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just privacy. Democracy in general. No cash mean you can't do anything that has not been validated by the state first. It means kids will have less options to foul around without the parents checking it. It means you won't be able to pay in a gay bar anonymously. It means any new (and hence controversial) political concept will have no way to financially grow to acceptance. It means no living off the grid. It mea…

in other news, wechat pay has 900M users monthly.

> Not just privacy. Democracy in general.

So yeah, China...

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#249

Post by sireat »

Lucadg wrote: post #127

This is the part where they reveal how they plan to negotiate with regulators: "At the core, we believe that a network that helps move more cash transactions — where a lot of illicit activities happen — to a digital network that features regulated on and off ramps with proper know-your-customer (KYC) practices, combined with the ability for law enforcement and regulators to conduct their own analysis of on-chain acti…

Our best hope against cashless remains seniors and immigrants: https://www.npr.org/2019/02/11/691334123/swedens-cashless-ex...

Otherwise we end up with cash that only outlaws use:

"His total assets were quickly converted to New Yen, a fat sheaf of the old paper currency that circulated endlessly through the closed circuit of the world's black markets like the seashells of the Trobriand islanders. It was difficult to transact legitimate business with cash in the Sprawl; in Japan, it was already illegal."

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#250

Post by icebraining »

boohoojangles wrote: post #211
mongol wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand it is a breach of terms of service but as a customer, why should you care? It is not like it is breaching the law. And small businesses live on a much smaller margin than banks.

I somewhat care because it seems like a bit prone to tax fraud. Not sure if it is easy for the Danish tax agencies to spot this kind of transaction and enforce tax collection though.

Why wouldn't it be? The transaction is still recorded and tied to the person's bank account and national ID, so the person has to justify that income.
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