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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#241

Post by CydeWeys »

hutzlibu wrote: post #238
CydeWeys wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they're also free to, rather than leave their dream career, push for unionization instead and fight to remain inside it. Just leaving is one choice, but fighting is another.

But the company was there first. If the company sucks, than those devs could also found a better company instead of trying to change the bad company. So fighting, yes, but maybe for something solid.

I don't see why that matters.

It's legal to go find another job. It's also legal to unionize. Who are you to tell other people what to do? It's fine if you would just leave, but maybe others don't want to. Maybe they've poured their heart and soul into that company, or it's the best job around and if they leave it they'd have to move. There's plenty of reasons why people who are not you would choose to fight instead of give up and leave.

It doesn't make sense to criticize others for doing something that's perfectly acceptable just because you wouldn't do it.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#242

Post by stevenwoo »

magduf wrote: post #141
hnarn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

>but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. That's because, in the US, it's all true, historically. Auto unions were a big reason why Detroit's automakers were so uncompetitive against the Japanese automakers in the 80s; autoworkers got ridiculous pay for menial work, which is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada, and other automak…

Don't know if it is still true but almost everyone at Boeing is part of the union, my college co-op student peers in the 1980's said they had to join the union even as electrical or aerospace engineers to work for a semester.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#243

Post by fragsworth »

slamberth wrote: post #161
beatgammit wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. My dream scenario is to be in a situation like Tarn Adams, who works on a game he loves and lives off donations. Ideally, by that point I'd have enough to sustain myself without donations so that source of stress is gone. I don't want to work in the AAA game industry, I want to work for myself in the indie game industry on a project that both I and my supporters love.

Unfortunately, that situation caught up with Tarn recently. They've had to change their whole model due to rising health care costs and are now hoping for actual sales to keep them afloat. I think that just shows how all of the factors in the article (work conditions, health care, "crunch") are intertwined. People are torn between doing what they love and doing what pays well so they can stay afloat.

The silver lining is he's probably going to be rich as hell after it launches on Steam.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#244

Post by mixmastamyk »

maxxxxx wrote: post #235
mixmastamyk wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you give an incorrect estimate, you'll be the one to blame at the end of the project. Remember estimates aren't promises, so better to deal with hurt feelings at the start of the project.

The way it usually works is that I say it will take 12 months and the response is "we need it in 6". So I say "fine, we'll give it a go but I am not making any promises" and off we go.

The scope must then be cut, or the project careens into Fantasyland. That happens at some places understood, a sign of incompetent management.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#245

Post by hutzlibu »

makecheck wrote: post #180

I resisted spending any time on game development for a long time because I knew deep down how games are consumed extremely quickly. You can spend tons of effort to build a utility app that might prove its value every day for years and years, and may never lose all value. You can spend tons of time and effort developing a game that may become boring to players in a matter of weeks or months and never be used again . U…

"because I knew deep down how games are consumed extremely quickly"

Those are called "casual games".

Most gamers will have games with (much) over 1000 h played .. I would not call that "consumed quickly"

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#246

Post by cheez »

adrianhel wrote: post #240
slg wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In this case, the demand is “the ability to express myself to a huge audience.” People are willing to pay to do that. Because of that, they see any job where they get to do it as a net positive, even if the job is horrible. This is true for any job that is just an extension of a hobby. People put on local community theater productions in their spare time because they find it fun and fulfilling. You don't have to pay…

And the type of software people make for free is not the same software people get paid to create. I bet few people would be eager to develop banking software on their free time for instance.

Something something Satoshi

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#247

Post by hackyhawk »

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

"Success often leads to passion." - The TechLead

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#248

Post by [deleted] »

dom96 wrote: post #196
yomly wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm this having accidentally ended up working in the Media industry (in a non-passion capacity). More pertinently, I know someone trying to get an entry level role in a similar passion field and is struggling. Adding to the problem is: - Passion fields are quite insular and like to only hire from within the industry - Nepotism is everywhere. In something like art, hiring so and so's son/daughter may cost you…

Nepotism is so pervasive and so horrible that I believe it should be outlawed. My SO is trying to get into the Media industry and I am myself incredibly frustrated for her sake by the amount of nepotism she experiences, when you've got assistants who are rude to everyone and lazy outright at a company but can't be fired because one of the producers knows their mother it's pretty freaking annoying.

[deleted]

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#249

Post by doctorpangloss »

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

I don’t know, I think Jason knows a lot more about this stuff than we do.

The supply/demand thing, I wish he omitted because it lets people look at things way too reductionist.

It’s actually very difficult to look at a salary and have that tell you something about supply and demand for a job. It’s obviously not that simple. In particular, it would be impossible to look at that figure and try to make heads or tails of what the “supply and demand” for executives is, because they’re paid so much radically differently. And yet accelerators churn out CEOs every day! You’d point out that I’m asking the wrong question, “it’s not about supply and demand when it comes to executive pay.” I agree, and I don’t think it’s about supply and demand for game developer pay either.

From a strictly economic point of view, the bonus system is very distorting. You get paid a huge bonus if your game gets a lot of units sold after your crunch time. However, since the publishers own the studios now, that doesn’t happen as much, and the bonuses go to the “shareholder” (ie the CEO and other highly stock compensated executives). Seems like exactly the sort of thing a union could negotiate!

But making the low line developer sound like the antagonist? “People to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of ‘passion.’” Like I know you didn’t mean to sound like the bad guy, but is your line of argument really to ignore how economic structures in the industry underpay people, and instead it’s the underpaid people’s fault for being passionate?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#250

Post by TallGuyShort »

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

I think the other dimension here is the number of people who equate passion with qualification. They enter the industry thinking that a lifetime of playing video games qualifies them, whereas you actually end up needing strong software engineering skills, often with an emphasis in graphics and other math-heavy niches, a strong work ethic and many other qualities. Passion helps. Years of being a customer helps. Doesn't replace other qualifications, though. I've seen more than a few friends on the losing end of some miserable attempts to create their own video game company (or graphic design business, photography business, etc.) because they equated interest with immediate ability.
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