Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#241

Post by kaybe » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 1:25 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #185

alkonaut wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air travel is extremely tax-subsidized. If taxes on airplane fuel was similar to car petrol taxes in Europe that would be a good start. I hope there can be some sort of EU-wide agreement on that soon, because the current state of affairs is pretty silly and there is no way a single country can unilaterally impose high CO2 taxes on airlines.

Yeah, but I propose the opposite: don't cut air subsidies, but add train subsidies. Basically, my understanding is that countries subsidize air travel because it's good for the economy. Business and trade and all that. Now that long distance train becomes more fashionable and comfortable (and it does! A 1st class ICE across Germany is like a moving office, wow), you could make the argument that (long distance) train…

Still, we want people to fly less and substitute for train wherever remotely possible (since climate). So I don't agree.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#242

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 1:26 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #43

avolcano wrote: post #12

Excited about this idea. I wanted to do an overnight train in a Europe trip I did last year, but the timing and quality never quite worked out. A lot of the time, trains between cities in western Europe are annoyingly long for a day trip, but slightly _too short_ for overnight trips - almost like an NYC->London red-eye, where you arrive just after you fall asleep. The couple of overnight trains I saw that seemed like…

You write "_ferry_" like it's something weird, but it's a completely normal transport option for a huge number of Europeans -- usually for longer journeys, but sometimes to cover a short distance in 20-30 minutes. There are many ferry connections across the Irish, North, Baltic and Mediterranean seas. Ignoring the price, I'd choose an overnight ferry over an overnight train. The worst room on a ferry is probably as l…

Overnight sleeper ferries are a thing in China, I took one from Shanghai to an island in zhejiang once.

If you take a ferry up from Washington state to Alaska, they have sleeper cabins of course for the rich but you are also allowed to pitch a tent on top in a designated area.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#243

Post by kaybe » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 1:27 PM UTC

2T1Qka0rEiPr wrote: post #216

skrebbel wrote: post #181

My experience is that flying inside Europe tends to be cheaper than long-distance train. Does anyone here whether it's simply intrinsically cheaper, or whether it's all because of kerosine subsidies etc? In other words, if countries would subsidize long-distance train as much as they subsidize air flight, would the economics look different? Would train get substantially cheaper? I lack both the insight and the data t…

I'd also love to see some detailed information on this. I recently flew within Germany, probably saving a few hours over the train, but much more importantly it cost half the price. Seems that for the vast majority of people who are price conscious, this is simply too significant to outweigh the environmental consequences.

Do you have a BahnCard? How much in advance did you book?

Currently you can go to most places with 30-50€ if you play it right.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#244

Post by detaro » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 1:35 PM UTC

2T1Qka0rEiPr wrote: post #216

skrebbel wrote: post #181

My experience is that flying inside Europe tends to be cheaper than long-distance train. Does anyone here whether it's simply intrinsically cheaper, or whether it's all because of kerosine subsidies etc? In other words, if countries would subsidize long-distance train as much as they subsidize air flight, would the economics look different? Would train get substantially cheaper? I lack both the insight and the data t…

I'd also love to see some detailed information on this. I recently flew within Germany, probably saving a few hours over the train, but much more importantly it cost half the price. Seems that for the vast majority of people who are price conscious, this is simply too significant to outweigh the environmental consequences.

It really depends.

E.g. people commonly compare cheap plane tickets to the "regular" train ticket price, not to a savers ticket (which is bound to a specific train) booked early, which is more comparable to how you typically book a plane ticket. Similarly, the rebate cards quickly can make sense if you're not only traveling once. On the other hand, it certainly does happen that you can find cheap plane tickets on a connection where the cheap train tickets are already gone.

Time also depends, e.g. on where you're going in the destination town etc. If you take into account time to go to the airport, waiting and security time there, time to get from the airport into the city, ..., the train often isn't that much worse than it appears at first. Especially since e.g. a 6 hour train ride means I can sit down for 6 hours and work or nap, whereas the plane alternative is lots of short trips/wait times, which I personally find more stressful. I've flown inside Germany, but think it only makes sense in exceptional cases or if it's making a connection to an international flight.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#245

Post by kolla » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

I live in Sweden and most of the times I try to travel by train there is some unexpected thing they can't handle like snow, rain, leaves, sunshine so they are replaced by a buss. I wish trains were reliable.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#246

Post by matthewowen » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

avolcano wrote: post #12

Excited about this idea. I wanted to do an overnight train in a Europe trip I did last year, but the timing and quality never quite worked out. A lot of the time, trains between cities in western Europe are annoyingly long for a day trip, but slightly _too short_ for overnight trips - almost like an NYC->London red-eye, where you arrive just after you fall asleep. The couple of overnight trains I saw that seemed like…

I took the ferry often as a kid, and a couple of years ago took it from Crete to Athens. It was excellent. Leaves around 9pm, gets in around 7am, and a private berth for two costs about the same as a hotel or flights, but you're essentially getting both in one.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#247

Post by marv3lls » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

zensavona wrote: post #133

Symbiote wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You write "_ferry_" like it's something weird, but it's a completely normal transport option for a huge number of Europeans -- usually for longer journeys, but sometimes to cover a short distance in 20-30 minutes. There are many ferry connections across the Irish, North, Baltic and Mediterranean seas. Ignoring the price, I'd choose an overnight ferry over an overnight train. The worst room on a ferry is probably as l…

Interestingly enough in Europe there are places [1] where you can take a train which goes on a ferry, so you can take the ferry while you take the train [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogelfluglinie

I heard u liked transportation so we put a train inside a ferry so you can take the ferry while you take the train!

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#248

Post by atomwaffel » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #242

Symbiote wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You write "_ferry_" like it's something weird, but it's a completely normal transport option for a huge number of Europeans -- usually for longer journeys, but sometimes to cover a short distance in 20-30 minutes. There are many ferry connections across the Irish, North, Baltic and Mediterranean seas. Ignoring the price, I'd choose an overnight ferry over an overnight train. The worst room on a ferry is probably as l…

Overnight sleeper ferries are a thing in China, I took one from Shanghai to an island in zhejiang once. If you take a ferry up from Washington state to Alaska, they have sleeper cabins of course for the rich but you are also allowed to pitch a tent on top in a designated area.

A tent on a ship? Knowing how windy it can get at sea, that sounds terrifying, how do you secure it? Or are we talking indoors?

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#249

Post by 2T1Qka0rEiPr » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 3:12 PM UTC

kaybe wrote: post #243

2T1Qka0rEiPr wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also love to see some detailed information on this. I recently flew within Germany, probably saving a few hours over the train, but much more importantly it cost half the price. Seems that for the vast majority of people who are price conscious, this is simply too significant to outweigh the environmental consequences.

Do you have a BahnCard? How much in advance did you book? Currently you can go to most places with 30-50€ if you play it right.

I don't have a BahnCard, just looking at the site I'm really not sure I'd use it enough to justify it. Booked a couple of months in advance, and compared flight prices on that day to the train. Flights were significantly cheaper.

Re: Sweden Wants to Revive Europe’s Overnight Trains

#250

Post by 2T1Qka0rEiPr » Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #244

2T1Qka0rEiPr wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also love to see some detailed information on this. I recently flew within Germany, probably saving a few hours over the train, but much more importantly it cost half the price. Seems that for the vast majority of people who are price conscious, this is simply too significant to outweigh the environmental consequences.

It really depends. E.g. people commonly compare cheap plane tickets to the "regular" train ticket price, not to a savers ticket (which is bound to a specific train) booked early, which is more comparable to how you typically book a plane ticket. Similarly, the rebate cards quickly can make sense if you're not only traveling once. On the other hand, it certainly does happen that you can find cheap plane tickets on a c…

In my case I compared all options on the same day, with a couple of months' notice - plane still cheaper. I take your point though about "hidden" time costs. I'm taking a bus for a future trip because, despite being significantly longer than the alternative, it's over 3x cheaper and - as you said - I can just (try to) sleep on it.