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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#241

Post by rb808 »

twic wrote: post #162
hota_mazi wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence Applets, JavaBeans, and CORBA. What a loss. > Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, That stopped being an issue years ago. OpenJDK is a thing, you know? > Java on the web is dead, I don't think you have any idea about the hundreds of millions of lines of Java that power the web as you know it today. The rest…

I liked CORBA! I'll take it over whatever lackadaisical JSON silliness we have today.

Amen. Its a sad state of affairs when the middleware we had 25 years ago was faster and more robust that what we have now.

Re: Java 12

#242

Post by cutler »

pmoriarty wrote: post #210
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

There are a huge number of Java programmers who know very little if anything outside of it, who've geared their entire careers towards learning the Java ecosystem and don't want to learn anything else. There are also thousands of companies which are focused on Java, Java, and more Java. Many schools are also geared towards churning out more Java engineers, and people who don't yet know Java want to learn it because t…

Maybe this is where Kotlin fits in.

Re: Java 12

#243

Post by spricket »

jimbokun wrote: post #68
rb808 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironicaly I'm the other way around. Java is a pretty good platform, save the GC pauses. However I really dont see what benefits Spring brings. Spring Boot is great for prototyping and trivial apps, but for big systems you really want to break it apart. DI is better done with ServiceLocators. Some of the smaller libraries like Spring Shell, Spring Mobile are junk. And I still see lots of XML config that you dont know…

"Spring Boot is great for prototyping and trivial apps, but for big systems you really want to break it apart." Any practical advice for making this happen? I have a Spring Boot system I wrote and am responsible for, but now I just want the pain to stop.

You need to take the library approach. It's much like react vs angular. With angular, and spring, you get a ton out of the box but much is mediocre.

Like React, you can out together your own "best of breed" java stack. It just takes a lot more work.

Look to replace one component at a time. For DI Guice or Dagger2. For REST Vert.X or Jersey. Logging Logback. Metrics, DropWizard Metrics. OAuth ScribeJava. Hibernate for Spring Data.

Take a look at the "awesome java" repos and choose your poison.

I'll warn you now that while you can end up with something far better you lose the coherency of Spring. Of your organization doesn't have a good "apprentice" setup all the new devs will be utterly and hopelessly lost. And good luck finding a Dev that knows 20+ libraries vs "Spring".

Rolling the libs was worth it for us but probably not a lot of eng orgs

If you're just looking for a drop-in Spring replacement you can't go wrong with DropWizard. It's a solid combo of best-of-breed libraries and has quiet support/adoption by many huge companies

Re: Java 12

#245

Post by raz32dust »

wokwokwok wrote: post #179
spricket wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you're trolling so I'll try to keep this short. Java is old, it's crufty. Yes. But it's extremely fast compared to anything but Go, C#, and "low level" languages nobody wants to touch for web stuff. The JVM is also extremely reliable. I've seen apps run for years straight. And the tooling is better than basically anything. Profiling, debugging, realtime code generation and modification. Libraries for…

> There's many valid critisicms of Java... Yes there are. ...but the parent assertion that Java will one day be like cobol; no longer taught in intro to CS course (where now we see python), considered bloated and legacy, and not picked for new projects (where we see the rise of languages like kotlin eating into what was once the primary growth for the language with mobile apps) and encumbered by problematic licensing…

May be I am living in a bubble... it's always hard to tell from inside the bubble. But this is not my impression at all. All of the major tech companies have major Java footprint which is not going anywhere. This is not only the older tech companies (FB, Goog, Amazon etc.). Even newer companies like AirBnb, Uber rely heavily on Java. Startups often start with fancy esoteric languages but eventually do come around to java/c++/python once they need to really scale. I am not sure what exactly gives you the impression that Java is like Cobol.

Re: Java 12

#246

Post by spricket »

bpicolo wrote: post #188
pjmlp wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have quite a couple of them running happily with Java 11.

Were there any hiccups in the upgrade?

I've done this a few times. Most are due to reflection limitations with the newodule system.

They can be worked around by adding exceptions to removal of reflection metadata largely. Kinda a PITA but not too hard.

Active libraries have pretty good Java 11 support these days though. It's really improved a lot on the past year or two

Re: Java 12

#247

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

stefan_ wrote: post #84
_bxg1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

Their lower end target is 10 ms. In a game, 16 ms is your entire time budget.

16ms is only if you're just targeting 60fps. We now have 144hz monitors, leaving less than half of that if you want to take full advantage of the hardware.

Re: Java 12

#248

Post by spricket »

raz32dust wrote: post #245
wokwokwok wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's many valid critisicms of Java... Yes there are. ...but the parent assertion that Java will one day be like cobol; no longer taught in intro to CS course (where now we see python), considered bloated and legacy, and not picked for new projects (where we see the rise of languages like kotlin eating into what was once the primary growth for the language with mobile apps) and encumbered by problematic licensing…

May be I am living in a bubble... it's always hard to tell from inside the bubble. But this is not my impression at all. All of the major tech companies have major Java footprint which is not going anywhere. This is not only the older tech companies (FB, Goog, Amazon etc.). Even newer companies like AirBnb, Uber rely heavily on Java. Startups often start with fancy esoteric languages but eventually do come around to…

Agree, and yeah Java is peaking "uncool". But I don't care. Call me old fashioned but the damn thing works so good I can forgive a multitude of sins

Re: Java 12

#249

Post by swsieber »

vbezhenar wrote: post #139
swsieber wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, that's because java generics don't work with exceptions.

What do you mean? They do work with exceptions.

Ah, my mistake. I was thinking of generice type arguments for exception subclasses: https://www.mscharhag.com/java/java-exceptions-and-generic-t...

That also includes generic catch clauses and inner exception types of classes with type parameters.

Re: Java 12

#250

Post by pron »

tambourine_man wrote: post #224
_bxg1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages for game development. This could open up the JVM for games, which could have some exciting implications.

>GC pauses have been one of the major barriers to using garbage collected (read: higher-level) languages There is such a thing as reference counting :)

What makes you think reference counting leads to shorter pauses than tracing? While it is absolutely true that sophisticated implementations of garbage collection via ref counting can exhibit similar performance to sophisticated tracing algorithms[1], most implementations of ref counting aren't nearly as sophisticated as modern implementations of tracing, and tend to be worse.

[1]: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~cs415/reading/bacon-garbage.pdf

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