UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time • Hacker News Board

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#241

Post by naasking » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #238

naasking wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, literally the second paragraph of the article addresses exactly the OP's point. I also wasn't being snarky, I was applying the OP's exact argument to his own critique of the article. I'm fine with sensible moderation, but holding up a mirror on a bad comment isn't an uncivil or snarky reply.

HN guidelines specifically say: > Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that." Your first paragraph is just as strong with its opening sentence (“Did you read the article?”) removed. The guidelines also say: > Don't say things you wouldn't say face-to-face. The final sentence of your last paragraph could…

Edit: I've erased this because I'm not going to debate rhetorical methods since this is all pointless.

HN's guidelines also suggest avoiding unrelated tangents, so this will be my last post debating rhetoric and HN guidelines.

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#242

Post by sekh60 » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:21 PM UTC

naasking wrote: post #191

calinet6 wrote: post #13

> To preface the article, I primarily work on, and prefer, back-end code. I've been involved in both web and software development for over 4 years now Cool, cool. To preface this comment, I'm a user experience designer, and I've been doing web software development and design for over 20 years. In reality, your conjecture turns out to be largely untrue. Visual design quality does have an impact. Main principle you wan…

> In reality, your conjecture turns out to be largely untrue. Visual design quality does have an impact. Did you read the article? The author specifically says, "Before all of the UI designers that read this go out and riot and champion against me for saying UI redesigns are a waste of time, let me say that I do value design . I think at the bare minimum, a product or website needs to be usable, and if you possess a…

I really wish Gmail would stop changing so frequently. It probably objectively isn't that bad, but having to teach older, not so tech competent relatives where things moved to is a real pain.

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#243

Post by ferongr » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #194

user5994461 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it better? What is the reason it's preferred?

It’s less visually jarring and doesn’t feel malleable. Find another human interface that consists of sharp edged shapes. That design aesthetic is like brutalist UI. Pretty for the architect, but few others are moved.

Please provide proof.

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#244

Post by pembrook » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

sekh60 wrote: post #242

naasking wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In reality, your conjecture turns out to be largely untrue. Visual design quality does have an impact. Did you read the article? The author specifically says, "Before all of the UI designers that read this go out and riot and champion against me for saying UI redesigns are a waste of time, let me say that I do value design . I think at the bare minimum, a product or website needs to be usable, and if you possess a…

I really wish Gmail would stop changing so frequently. It probably objectively isn't that bad, but having to teach older, not so tech competent relatives where things moved to is a real pain.

You don’t think Google is running tests on the effects of every little UI change?

Remember, their goals aren’t the same as your goals. Your goal is to get the best email tool possible. Google’s goal is to extract as much money as possible from you and your data...while still being the best alternative to competitors.

Those goals are very very different. Most of these comments are so naive. It’s almost as if most people have never seen the amount of actionable data the average digital product throws off.

A smart default assumption, especially when it comes to the big guys like google/Facebook; the UI changed because it makes the company more money.

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#245

Post by sinker » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 8:06 PM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #101

Predictably, the title alone is crack to HNers. If only stakeholders and designers would ask our opinion first, we'd save them the trouble! Between the author patting himself on the back for coming up with "don't do things for no reason" and "don't make things worse," he provides this criteria: > The only time a UI should be updated is if it impacts the ability of a user to actually use your application. This criteri…

I expected to at least be entertained by the article but it's so full of faulty reasoning I stopped reading about three quarters of the way through. It's full of platitudes and has little critical reasoning to support such a broad statement as its title.

>> "If you possess a good eye and steady hand, you should feel compelled to create something that looks pleasing"

Okay.. Goes on to include a big picture of Michelangelo's "David" to suggest that designers should strive to create masterpieces in the same vein...?

>> "People use applications because of their purpose, not because it is pleasing to the eye."

Another baseless generality. The first part is obviously true, but it doesn't follow that people don't care about appearance.

>> "The only time a UI should be updated is if it impacts the ability of a user to actually use your application."

Another unsupported opinion phrased as an absolute.

>> "It hurts retention"

This would have been a natural point to include actual data. Nonetheless the article falls back on making generalizations about people's behavior.

>> "Does it really add up, or are you just giving designers busywork that doesn't amount to anything in the end? Do we have concrete evidence that what we are doing will provide benefit to the company or users, or just feel that it would be better if the UI was redesigned? Take a minute, think about that one."

There's not a single piece of concrete evidence in this entire article.

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#246

Post by plorkyeran » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 8:08 PM UTC

gwern wrote: post #195

username223 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this will never happen, but it would be interesting to see the percentage of Reddit users who took the time to opt out of the new "improved" interface. I suspect that number is small, because most people have learned to just quietly sigh and accept random UI changes, but larger than the Reddit UI team would care to admit.

If you are a moderator of a reasonably popular subreddit, you can find out by checking the traffic statistics which breaks out old vs new! For example, for my little link-sharing subreddit ( https://www.reddit.com/r/gwern/ ) : https://imgur.com/a/sUcEQeQ You can see a large fraction of the users have taken the time to optout, perhaps as much as a third (!) of those who can. Considering how passive most users are, thi…

Reddit tries pretty hard to force you back onto the new design, too. When not using old.reddit.com it "forgets" that I opted out of the redesign on a regular basis, and even old.reddit.com occasionally redirects to the new design.

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#247

Post by hhs » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

tanilama wrote: post #71

I tend to agree. Google supposedly has an army of good designers, with their constant redesigns, my first thoughts are always that I wish the redesign never happens, but later because I stick to it, I get used to it so that I dislike it a little less until next redesign happens. Let’s face it. People aren’t really that welcoming towards redesign, if given a choice, they probably would choose to have the business as u…

This happened to me with the recent change with Gmail. I was quite sad to see the loss of UI simplicity when they tweaked the layout and aesthetics.

I loved their previous iteration because things moved quickly. I'm surprised with the redesign since, when you log in, there's a bit of a loading delay. But what am I going to do? I reminisce about the old version and adapt.

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#248

Post by edoceo » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 8:21 PM UTC

vosper wrote: post #240

blunte wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user, 9/10 if I notice the UI has changed, it's because I'm unhappy and feeling encumbered or lost. It's very rare that a redesign had me saying, "Oh wow, that's so much better!" So many UI fads have set usability back but get repeated with most redesigns... hamburger menus, login forms that hide password fields until you've entered the username, ultra minimal forms that leave the user guessing what is interacti…

> login forms that hide password fields until you've entered the username I've been lead to believe that this is for websites that support authentication by multiple methods. If you submit your email address first they can look it up and see that you auth with SAML, or log you in through Google, or if you login with a password they can then render that form for you.

We do this with a single form, not necessary to have two steps

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#249

Post by xtiansimon » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

tln wrote: post #197

xtiansimon wrote: post #193

The OP article is criticism-lite, but the topic is never more important with multi-platform phone, tablet, and web development. I believe we're post App-Gold-Rush era. You're not so excited anymore to run off and join a startup and leave a good paying job at a steady corporate gig. In that setting who's going to rock the boat? Who's going to stand up and question, Is this really the right direction? Everyone is getti…

Do you think they prioritized the newest users/prospects versus power users?

I don't imagine excuses for bad business decisions--There's really no point to adding a layer of rationality on top of an all too common failure.

This isn't a "game". I don't believe there are different levels of 'user'. This platform brings together your real-time geo-position, published maps, published transit schedules, multiple transit systems, and real-time system updates together. It's all there and all useful for every user from the very start.

The failure in the redesign is to leave the 'page' or 'modal' UX behind in favor of this hybrid/gesture controlled marble on maze UX.

They hit a home run from the beginning, and fracked it up. What's the 'nature' of a map? It's to be as big as possible, and yet they've layerd the schedule and took 50% of the screen away from the map.

If there's a difference among users, it's found when you live in a transit-rich community, like I do in NYC Metro (and you need a good app like Transit was). If you live in the sticks and there's only one line, then you open the app, check the schedule and you're done.

This is why I believe this _criticism_ is so important. I think we need to have a way to articulate these choices. Maybe a critical voice asking _Should we make this UX change at all?_, _Are we staring at our navel?_ Which is to say, in our own little bubble? Are these changes going to improve the software? Or, are we only showing off so we can justify our employment?

If they wanted to do such a radical redesign, why not fork the project? They could capture 'new users' with the Transit Marble Maze app.

Re: UI redesigns are mostly a waste of time

#250

Post by Fins » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #244

sekh60 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish Gmail would stop changing so frequently. It probably objectively isn't that bad, but having to teach older, not so tech competent relatives where things moved to is a real pain.

You don’t think Google is running tests on the effects of every little UI change? Remember, their goals aren’t the same as your goals. Your goal is to get the best email tool possible. Google’s goal is to extract as much money as possible from you and your data...while still being the best alternative to competitors. Those goals are very very different. Most of these comments are so naive. It’s almost as if most peop…

But that assumes that the new design does make more money. I, honestly, fail to see how, e.g., moving the account switch button in the new Gmail app from left to right increases ad views. On the other hand, from all we hear about Google's promotion process, it seems quite likely that the redesign happened "just because" and somebody gets to add a checkbox to the promotion list.