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RIP Culture War Thread

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Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#241

Post by finnthehuman »

kadendogthing wrote: post #78
npsimons wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now you can present almost any idea, no matter how ridiculous, harmful, or "bad" it may be and there will most likely be audience. Like anti-vax, or AGW denialism, or white supremacy, or flat-eartherism, or creationism, or trickle down economics . . . Need I go on?

No need. It really says a lot about the linked article in question where the best arguments he had for debate were allowing Nazi view points and pedophiles. He seemed kind of angry at other people for bringing it up as a way to demonstrate what he was doing was wrong but then turned around used those topics as an example of why his moderation and general platform were so great. Guess he can just have it both ways bec…

>It really says a lot about the linked article in question where the best arguments he had for debate were allowing Nazi view points and pedophiles.

WTF? Those were not the "best arguments he had for debate," he made it pretty clear that those were in fact his softest targets that his detractors could use to shut down debate. Which they accomplished.

I'm not saying I agree with Alexander's position, I usually have a lot of problems with anything he tags "things I will regret writing." But the one thing that's patently obvious about him from his writing, is his commitment to arguing the point even if it means straying into taboo topics that are much more easily avoided. As far as I can tell, that's sorta "the rationalists" _thing_. It's not my thing, but that doesn't mean I don't get what they're going for.

To characterize "allowing Nazi view points and pedophiles" as the _point_, rather than _an unfortunate consequence_ is an uncharitable take on their thing.

Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#242

Post by ethics_gradient »

livueta wrote: post #94
npsimons wrote: post #46

As to the "no comments section" policies, I'm gonna be honest: I don't blame them one bit. No one owes anyone a platform, and considering how easy and cheap it is to host your own content, why should anyone be forced to broadcast someone else's opinion? The truth of the matter is there are more trolls these days - see especially "The Card Says Moops" ( https://youtu.be/xMabpBvtXr4 ) as to one reason why. If you say "…

> As I pointed out above, anyone can get a website and domain name. I wish this were true, but I don't think it is anymore. If you post or host anything remotely controversial, expect to have your site DoS'd off the internet. How can that be avoided? Well, mostly through the help of one of the big boys (Cloudflare, Google Project Shield, etc). What happens if they decide you're a despicable, e.g. Stormfront? You're p…

The thread wasn't banned off of reddit though, just his site and subreddit. So no such issues here.

Otherwise I agree with worrying about the big platforms, though for I dont think stormfront would be the case to be upset about. We need net neutrality, then user controlled social media based on open source and probably federated. At that point users can decide what to let onto their feed.

Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#243

Post by araneae »

gipp wrote: post #19
ufmace wrote: post #14

This highlights some very troublesome trends on the internet these days. We once envisioned the internet as a place of revolutionarily open discourse, where any idea under the sun could get posted somewhere and read, no matter how crazy or bad it seemed, with the worst ridiculed and dismissed, but still able to be read, and the best rising to the top. It seems like we're moving in the opposite direction these days, w…

What you've left out of that idyll of the early internet, though, is that its population was - smaller, by many orders of magnitude - from a highly homogeneous distribution of cultural backgrounds - mostly of comfortable material means These are, and have probably always been, prerequisites for the kind of civil discourse you're talking about. The "heavy-handedness" of tech companies is IMO less a cause than it is a…

The other thing they're missing is that it was also rife with child porn and snuff videos.

I too have nostalgia for the old days of the internet where there were lots of niche sites about specialist interests and things were easier to find, but I don't think the internet was ever really an idyllic garden of rational discourse. It was from nearly the beginning a manifestation of humanity's id.

Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#244

Post by ethics_gradient »

iron0013 wrote: post #66
komali2 wrote: post #51

>A subreddit devoted to insulting and mocking me personally and Culture War thread participants in general got started; it now has over 2,000 readers. Anyone know which subreddit that is?

https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/

Not sure if there's more mocking or calling out, HBD and otherwise. The forum's focus on HBD seems something worth critiquing extensively.

Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#245

Post by jplayer01 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #211
jplayer01 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming forums? They rank up there as the worst the internet has to offer. Which one exactly are you taking about? Because all the ones I've seen are toxic cesspools unless it's a subreddit for a niche game like Factorio, which is consequently small with a very specific demographic.

I would guess they're talking about niche gaming forums. I know a bunch myself - /r/Factorio, /r/KerbalSpaceProgram, /r/Subnautica, /r/StardewValley... oh wait, the latter two aren't that niche. In my experience, it's a matter of focus and moderation. Unfocused groups turn quickly into toxic cesspools, whether the groups are made of nerds (e.g. 4chan) or genpop (Facebook threads, or comment sections in those publicat…

There are plenty of factors that play into how or why a forum turns to shit. You're right that size or "niche" isn't always the dominating factor, but in most cases, it's clearly important. There are, on the other hand, plenty of incredibly niche and focused communities that do turn toxic and insufferable (as any Darkfall game shows). People are complex and we tend to talk in short-hand because we don't have the time or desire to write entire papers about why people tend to suck when you put them together.

Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#246

Post by Fnoord »

sastaha wrote: post #147
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"observable, object-level matters of Presidential performance like competence or policy, Trump is motherfucking godawful by almost everyone's standards" Your mistake is to assume that almost everyone wants the Camp of Saints and the Bernie free stuff agenda. As someone who will end up paying for that agenda, I'm less enthused.

> As someone who will end up paying for that agenda, I'm less enthused.

I'm less enthused that you're not paying your fair share for the current agenda.

Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#247

Post by ethics_gradient »

Nasrudith wrote: post #217
heurist wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen a lot of active suppression of right wing views other than the more numerous liberals having more bodies to throw at arguments. If the tables were turned and liberal ideas were less popular than conservative ideas then by human nature we'd likely see the same kinds and amount of individual attacks. It already happens in right wing enclaves. I've been banned from multiple conservative subreddits for mak…

Yeah in my experience it is more conservatives (mostly fundamentalists) who have a persecution complex about it. Which is very differently from those who are or were persecuted. One brings it out and up everywhere as self-justification as they aren't actually being persecuted haven't tweaked their behaviors from even negative receptions. One may call them drama llamas trenchantly but more charitably it is identity ba…

I really, really wish I got a penny every time I get accused of wanting to censor conservatives simply because I criticized them.

Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#248

Post by Fnoord »

Nasrudith wrote: post #220
eschaton wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand why people think giving space and respect to odious beliefs is somehow virtuous. What it does is normalize those beliefs and enable them to propagate while simultaneously exhausting those who oppose them. See Sarte’s comments on Anti-Semitism; the holders of odious beliefs are generally not “playing the same game” as those who oppose them, and giving space to all ideas, no matter how awful, is actu…

I think the Devil and Daniel Webster is a better reference here - if you chop down all the laws and norms that shield the Devil what is left to shield you? By condoning silencing there is the risk you will be silenced - and the article demonstrates how the same means of suppression may be applied when your norms are judged unacceptable and it is intolerable for another to not censor. Both have valid points and the pr…

> First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—

> Because I was not a socialist.

> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—

> Because I was not a trade unionist.

> Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

> Because I was not a Jew.

> Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

A translation of the German poem by pastor Martin Niemöller [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#249

Post by ethics_gradient »

sov wrote: post #141

I've been a member of the sub since its inception, and I've long defended Scott's analyses, but, as a longtime reader and (former) participant in the CW threads, I think he's grossly missed the mark here in the first section. I think if you read the first part of this article really closely, that should be obvious. "I will be honest and admit I rarely read the thread myself." - Scott "For all its awfulness..." - wert…

That is a great summary, thank you.

Re: RIP Culture War Thread

#250

Post by coldtea »

coldtea wrote: post #129
gipp wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you've left out of that idyll of the early internet, though, is that its population was - smaller, by many orders of magnitude - from a highly homogeneous distribution of cultural backgrounds - mostly of comfortable material means These are, and have probably always been, prerequisites for the kind of civil discourse you're talking about. The "heavy-handedness" of tech companies is IMO less a cause than it is a…

> - smaller, by many orders of magnitude - from a highly homogeneous distribution of cultural backgrounds - mostly of comfortable material means These are, and have probably always been, prerequisites for the kind of civil discourse you're talking about. In no way in the "idyll of the early internet" I was part of, did I consider fewer people of "homogeneous cultural background" and not poor, as the "prerequisite" fo…

>Sorry, but part of my techno-libertarian-utopian ideal was open discussion period. Not some version of "civilized" discussion that should follow some specific form and decorum.

Come to think of it, what's described did exist, in communities like The Well. But I didn't then, and don't now, consider them as the model of discussion.

You can find diamonds in the most open (and rougher) discussion. In fact, TFA mentions that much, that in their expected to be a hellish everything-goes Reddit thread, they found pockets of great discussion.

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