Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 541 posts

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#241

Post by greedo »

normal_man wrote: post #193
0x445442 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Is it really just "I worked hard for it why should I give it away" No it's more "I worked hard for it why should it be taken from me by force or fiat". I've found most folks who are well off (not living hand to mouth) are willing, and do give to charity. It's when some other group of people start demanding this behavior through governmental force when attitudes change.

Actually lower income people give more to charity than well-off people.

Per capita or as a whole?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#242

Post by MockObject »

rock_hard wrote: post #227
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

When I came to America I had nothing: no social network, no college degree, no money! But America is a place full of opportunity and so after 10 years here and a lot of work I can look back and say that am much happier than I ever was in Europe since the day I got here! The deal is simple: work hard and the sky is the limit. I started a family, have worked at Fortune 20 companies in management positions, bought a hou…

How is this wholesome content even getting downvoted?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#243

Post by phkahler »

habosa wrote: post #222

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all. Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides. We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

I'm beginning to think increasing minimum wage will help. You don't need to tax the rich, just make them pay their people better. But that's still at odds with two thing. 1) it will increase incentive for more automation - but that's already happening as fast as the engineers can do it. 2) it will increase the incentive to use undocumented workers who can be paid under the table below minimum wage. Before we can talk about increasing the minimum wage I think we need to make sure everyone who works is actually getting it.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#244

Post by fogetti »

habosa wrote: post #222

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all. Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides. We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

There are three problems with your statement.

First that you assume that we don't have givers and takers right now.

Second that you imply that takers are the poor.

Third is that you assume there is no resentment at the moment.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#245

Post by TeMPOraL »

supermw wrote: post #188
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

If I put in my time, if I learn valuable skills, if I make smart choices, if I choose to do something complex over something menial, then I would want to see myself doing better than people who did not choose to do those things, no matter how nice and kind they may be. Anything else, would be unfair and make me question the point of my efforts.

Most people didn't have the choice you did.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#246

Post by ausjke »

rock_hard wrote: post #227
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

When I came to America I had nothing: no social network, no college degree, no money! But America is a place full of opportunity and so after 10 years here and a lot of work I can look back and say that am much happier than I ever was in Europe since the day I got here! The deal is simple: work hard and the sky is the limit. I started a family, have worked at Fortune 20 companies in management positions, bought a hou…

I see you're downvoted, so I upvoted you, though it might not be enough.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#247

Post by svantana »

sol_remmy2 wrote: post #231
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

Western European countries hardly take immigrants. When you live in a homogenous, solely middle-class country like Sweden/Denmark/Norway, of course everything seems nice and comfortable. But America accepts some very poor immigrants and allows them to make money and be lifted up. Those are many of the people you saw on the bus.

Easily disproven statement by looking at real stats [1], where most western european countries are ahead of the US. If you're suggesting those immigrants are not "poor", consider the Syrian crisis, Germany and Sweden were by far the largest takers of syrian refugees in the west, while the US hardly took any syrians at all. In fact, I read somewhere that Sweden in 2015 was the largest taker of refugees per capita from non-neighboring countries EVER.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra...

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#248

Post by at-fates-hands »

CalRobert wrote: post #199
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

I work in tech. My wife does not. We came to the EU and I noticed that I make a good deal less, but she makes more. Even more important, though, instead of me getting lots of vacation time and her getting almost nothing, we both get a month off a year, protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). We can finally take proper holidays together. Life is better here.

> protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away).

I've worked at two places who had this policy and it was remarkable how many people just burned themselves out by NOT taking a single day of vacation. There was always pressure from management to NOT take vacation, then you add in pressure from your co-workers to continually work late, push to get projects done on time, all at the cost of your sanity and physical well being.

My thought has always been if you're going to join a company who has an "unlimited vacation" policy, it's probably a good indication there's an expectation you're going to work yourself into the ground, then burn out and will need an extended amount of time to get yourself right.

If a company champions this policy during an interview, it's a huge red flag for me.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#249

Post by fineIllregister »

supermw wrote: post #188
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

If I put in my time, if I learn valuable skills, if I make smart choices, if I choose to do something complex over something menial, then I would want to see myself doing better than people who did not choose to do those things, no matter how nice and kind they may be. Anything else, would be unfair and make me question the point of my efforts.

This assumes that poor people don't put in time, have valuable skills, make smart choices, or do complex work.

It also assumes that they had the choices better than the position they have.

There's also another assumption that the protections social safety nets completely eliminate incentive to put in effort. GP didn't say they moved to a nonexistant land where everyone is paid the exact same.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#250

Post by elliekelly »

wincy wrote: post #197
arandr0x wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just think people who come in late at the party because their kid was sick and they're mentally ill and they live way out in the middle of the country and there's no pie left should at least get a couple apples or something.

My kid is disabled and I have severe anxiety and suffered depression. I live right in the middle of the US. I didn’t start my tech career until 28 because of all that, but I’m doing ok. I live in a big house with good schools. From what I’ve gathered of non-US (European) tech jobs, I’d never have gotten an opportunity to work as a programmer because I never got a bachelors degree. Maybe it isn’t like that everywhere,…

Perhaps you wouldn't have had the same opportunities without a degree in Europe but have you considered the possibility that had you been in Europe it also would have been significantly more affordable and easier to get a degree given your situation?

Universal healthcare, for example, might have allowed your mental health issues to be addressed sooner. And even if they were addressed some people just need more time to complete their education. My sister really struggled with college due to her anxiety and depression and a four-year plan just wasn't going to work for her situation. Unfortunately, college is so expensive there is a lot of pressure to finish as soon as possible. Like you, she dropped out. Now she's in the most difficult situation: the burden of the student loans without the benefit of the piece of paper.

That doesn't happen in Europe. The affordability of university in Europe allows people who need a bit more time to figure things out or to work through their own personal struggles to actually complete the program. And even if someone drops out they aren't left with an unmanageable amount of debt that will follow them for the rest of their life.

The "safety nets" in Europe allow young 20-somethings the flexibility to figure things out for themselves without completely screwing up their future financially. I think we really underestimate the value of that flexibility for a young person in the United States.

Post reply on HN