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Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

reuters.com

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Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#241

Post by blattimwind »

FiveSquared wrote: post #224
freeflight wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasnt the last time this actually happened "occupy" and didn't that get dismantled and side-tracked pretty quickly? IMHO not even a US specific issue, people in a whole lot of "western countries" seem to have forgotten how to meaningfully protest. Sure, there is the occasional "against climate change" or "for this societal issue" marches, but they all have the problem of being incredibly obscure in their goals and de…

Facebook. That’s why. People protest online instead of offline.

That'll teach them!

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#242

Post by gadders »

nickik wrote: post #216
gadders wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is a radical islamic theocracy that hangs gay people and exports terrorism to the rest of the Middle East in the form of Hamas and Hezbollah. They also want to wipe Israel from the map and are trying to build nuclear weapons. We need more sanctions, not less.

Your first sentence is correct. The second is pretty much false. Iran has never tried to build nuclear weapons. Iran has been and always was perfectly in accordance with international law. If you want to sanction Iran for the reason giving in your first line, then you must sanction literally every single ally the US has in the Middle East. Please stop claiming that this is some moral position that the US holds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_relations#...

Pretty good evidence there that Iran wants to destroy Israel. Even if they're not trying to build nukes, which is a stretch, they can't be trusted with nuclear power.

I agree that it is not the only homophobic non-democracy in the Middle East. The sooner no-one needs oil and we can stop dealing with those countries, the better.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#243

Post by pierrebai »

paulddraper wrote: post #119
audunw wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, except that the US has reduced emissions more than any other country Starting from insanely high emission levels > and is highly competitive on a per-capita percentage basis. No. That's just false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

??? Your link says in 2013 the U.S. was near its neighbor Canada on per capita carbon emissions. That's still double the EU. But that's also 6 years ago; the gap will have closed somewhat.

Read the central table, the data is from 2015. Every metrics shows the US is worse: total, per capita, per GDP. (The last two shows the US is more than twice as much polluting. I doubt thé US cut it's emmision by more than half since 2015. Other country are also not standing still. Germany vowed to cut off coal entirely in the next decades.)

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#244

Post by Kiriyat »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #137
enriquto wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an European, I just don't get the Israeli fixation with Iran, I agree, but let's not forget also the ridiculous fixation of Iran with Israel, which is even more senseless. I do not understand where the Irani animosity towards Israel comes from. Both countries are surrounded by arabs that hate them, wouldn't they all be better of as best buddies?

> I do not understand where the Irani animosity towards Israel comes from. Both countries are surrounded by arabs that hate them, wouldn't they all be better of as best buddies? I have studied this very question previously and it's a bit more complex than that. Iran had a democratically elected government, but in the early 50s, the UK & US orchestrated a coup that ousted that government, since they wanted to national…

> I have studied this very question previously and it's a bit more complex than that.

It's in fact far more complex that what you describe and I strongly urge readers to do their own research.

> Iran had a democratically elected government, but in the early 50s, the UK & US orchestrated a coup that ousted that government, since they wanted to nationalize their natural resources and kick foreign oil firms out of the country.

Iran had had a monarchy for 2500 years. Then, after a brief power struggle, Mohammed Mossadegh (previously appointed prime minister by the Shah himself) became a leader for two years. He did later win an election. Indeed, he was ousted by that coup and monarchy was restored.

> The U.S. the installed the King of Iran as their puppet dictator. The King was a close ally of Israel and Saudi Arabia as well.

Characterizing Reza Pahlavi as a dictator or a "close ally" of Israel is an exaggeration. He was a monarch - and a reluctant one at that.

> These forces are not occupying the territories, they're native to the land, but just ideologically align more with Iran than other countries in the region.

By these "forces", you must be referring to Hezbollah, the terrorist organization that killed over 300 peacekeeping forces in the Beirut bombing during the Lebanese civil war, or the Houthi rebels that played a major role in causing the ongoing the civil war in Yemen.

> Part of how Iran was able to attract their support was by positioning itself as the force to stand against Western abuses in the region, (including Israel).

Almost every Arab country in the region stands against Iran, to the point of covertly cooperating with Israel. Those who align with Iran are virtually all part of the Shia/Alawite religious minority.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#245

Post by lustysocietyorg »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #197
parthdesai wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you agree with policies of other two parties? Let take 2016 elections for example, your choices were; Hillary, responsible for a failed country right now and rigged primaries or Trump, the less said about him is better. If enough people voted for a different party, that would keep these two main parties in sort of a check as well, knowing they can't get away with whatever they want.

There are certainly things I don't agree with with the options available. This idea that candidates need to perfectly represent everyone's opinions is just absurd. I don't agree with everything that Hillary did or that Trump is doing. That doesn't mean everything they did was bad or good. But to suggest Jill Stein as a viable alternative when she has some dubious backing doesn't really empower choosing the 3rd party,…

I guess you talk about Russia as dubious backer.

You really believe that the POTUS (notably Jill Stein and the Green Party) could be paid by Russia to enforce Russian policies to the detriment of US citizens ?

This idea is as crazy as the idea that China invented global warming to harm the USA economy.

From https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/0111/93244...

Back in 2012, almost three years before he declared that he was going to run for the White House, Mr Trump tweeted: "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive."

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#246

Post by slededit »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #237
dunpeal wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also advocate for an embargo of China, which pollutes at over twice the rate of the US? How about embargo of the EU, which currently pollutes at roughly the same rate? Did you know that energy production in the US is overall more environmentally friendly than in Germany, for example?

The US has one of the highest CO2 per capita of the OECD. Germany emits half the CO2 per capita that the US does. Also, Chinese people don’t drive stupid big SUV and trucks while running the AC on full blast all summer.

The US emits more CO2 while Europe releases far more NOx and other more “traditional” pollutants.

The diesel emissions scandal in the US had a European counterpart that was never dealt with. 2018 models are still polluting far above the official limits which themselves are more lax than the US. [1]

[1] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180921140151.h...

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#247

Post by AsyncAwait »

spiritcat wrote: post #175
AsyncAwait wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> half the world isn't actively trying to destroy most people/nations True, including Israel. You do realize that the occupation and abuse of Palestinians by Israel is what drives those Arabs that hate Israel, right? It's a rallying call, if you will. As for genocidal rhetoric, it's been done both by Israeli neighbors and Israel itself. As for military might, Israel is clearly on top. > I do recognize it must suck as…

> You do realize that the occupation and abuse of Palestinians by Israel is what drives those Arabs that hate Israel, right? It's a rallying call, if you will. Naive. I'm sure they'll find another excuse to restore the Muslim lands. There is abuse and it's not pretty but just outright ending the occupation would basically be suicide. > As for military might, Israel is clearly on top. What's your point? It's ok if the…

> Naive. I'm sure they'll find another excuse to restore the Muslim lands.

So it's ok for you to continue, because you're sure they'll find another reason? What if am sure they won't? That's a lousy argument if I ever saw one.

> This is where the 'get fucked' comes in.

So you approve of violating international law? Why should Israel have any extra rights as a state, compared to others, or the Palestinians for that matter?

> What's your point? It's ok if they shoot missiles at me because ours our bigger and fancier?

It's not ok, but so it's acting that your bombardment is a proportional response to their home-made rockets. It mostly kills civilians.

> Noted. Both sides are negotiating in bad faith so some degree here. There is no indication that Palestinians will ever consider one square inch of Israel to not be 'jacking their lands'

The Palestinians have said that they're OK with the '67 borders, that's certainly giving up on some land allocated to them by the UN to Israel.

> any more than there is of settlers giving up hope for 'greater Israel.'

So is this the justification for continuing the status quo of the occupation? That's not a good look if I may say so myself. How are the settlers different then than the extreme Islamic factions of the Palestinians? Because their settlements are protected by Israel and thus make Israel at least partially responsible for them.

> So they can use fishing boats to smuggle weapons and concrete for tunnels? Which IS what would happen. but still..

Am sure there would a percentage used that way, so do inspections or whatever. You don't make an argument like this for anything other. "There should be no cars, because someone may have an accident".

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#248

Post by tomp »

misja wrote: post #118
tomp wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has not trading with "evil" regimes done any good? 50 years later, Cuba still exists, and so does North Korea...

But the Apartheid regime in South Africa has collapsed, and so have (most) communist totalitarian regimes in Eastern Europe.

Was that because of trade sanctions, or because the regimes were (internally) unsustainable? (Honest question, I'm not old enough to know.)

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#249

Post by OkGoDoIt »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #237
dunpeal wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also advocate for an embargo of China, which pollutes at over twice the rate of the US? How about embargo of the EU, which currently pollutes at roughly the same rate? Did you know that energy production in the US is overall more environmentally friendly than in Germany, for example?

The US has one of the highest CO2 per capita of the OECD. Germany emits half the CO2 per capita that the US does. Also, Chinese people don’t drive stupid big SUV and trucks while running the AC on full blast all summer.

I’ve been in plenty of stupid big SUV’s with air conditioning blasting in the summer while in China. Big SUV’s are a status symbol and China summers are horrendously hot.

That being said I’m much more concerned with trash burning (it still happens, I’ve seen it plenty when driving outside of cities) and the byproducts of the intense construction that can’t be slowed down without seriously hurting their economy. I know multiple Chinese people with their retirement investments in concrete manufacturing companies that are losing big with recent government clamping down on that.

Both of these are anecdotal, sure, but then again I don’t trust official Chinese government data so anecdotal has some value.

The USA and other developed countries went through their own periods of abusing the environment during their industrial revolutions so I have to assume China will get through this as well. Things are already improving. And at least their government acknowledges it’s something they need to improve rather than actively regressing like the USA.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#250

Post by rat9988 »

sadris wrote: post #208
okal wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. The US is responsible for 14% of emissions, which is unconscionable for a country that only holds ~4.5% of the world's population. You're actually doing quite horribly on a per-capita basis. China is doing far better than the US on a per-capita count.

Should be GDP per unit of carbon. Not people.

Why? Are some people allowed to pollute more or less depending on if they are rich or poor?
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