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Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was an untapped market of engineers you'd better believe every tech company would be taking advantage of it. That's exactly the same argument used to justify every regressive policy. If x was true then rational y action would happen. But that's the poo tof racism and sexism rational y action doesn't happen due to the -ism.

Do you really think white men care so much about keeping down other groups of people that they would prioritize it over making more money and having more access to good workers? That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

It doesn't have to be be deliberate.

Unconscious bias is a thing.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#242
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey. I did read the article. It doesn’t support the conclusion OP is drawing. The aim of the AI is to “mechanize the search for talent”. It doesn’t care to, nor have any means to, make decisions “like the recruiters did”. Obviously machines don’t make decisions like humans do. They’re trying to reverse engineer an alternate decisions making process from the previous outcomes.

> The aim of the AI is to “mechanize the search for talent”. It doesn’t care to, nor have any means to, make decisions “like the recruiters did”. This is why AI is so confusing. All "AI" does is rapidly accelerate human decisions by not involving them, so that speed and consistency are guaranteed. They are not replacements for human decision making, they are replacements for human decision making at scale. If we can'…

> If we can't figure out how to do unbiased interviews at the individual level, then AI will never solve this problem. Anyone that tells you otherwise is selling you snake oil.

I wonder to what extent people want to solve it and perhaps more importantly whether or not it can be solved at all...

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's taking a little longer than it should, but people are finally starting to realize that the actual reason there aren't as many women in software is because they've chosen not to be. They're wired differently and therefore have different interests.

I don't think that's quite true, I think this is more of a nurture vs nature thing. My father got me into programming, and my colleagues who are women also have a backstory with someone supporting their interest in development.

For me it was my grandfather, but yes, I also got into programming at least partially due to nurture, not nature.

Just teach kids to code, boy or girl. Not all of them will like it, not all of them will be good at it. But I think a lot more girls would be into it and good at it if they were introduced to it before college.

Tailor it to the kid's interests. My first programs were more socially oriented. When I was 5-6 years old, all my programs were made-up conversations with the computer, where your answers were stored and parroted back by the computer to show that it was "listening". Maybe a boy would have been less into that and more into something mathier, like LOGO instead of BASIC, but it was what was interesting to me at that age. The computer was a form of imaginary friend for an introverted kid like me.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#244
It seems strange to me that they would train the system on resumes submitted to them over the past 10 years. I presume they judged the ones they hired as 'successes' and those they did not as 'failures'? Or did they judge all submissions as successes, expecting to be testing for 'does this person fit in with the group of people who submitted to us over the past 10 years?'

Neither matters much, neither makes sense. What they should have been doing was training it on the resumes submitted by employees who then went on to be very successful within the company. Those are the successes. Those are what you want more of. And, probably far less likely to be weirdly biased by gender or race or whatnot.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#245

So why is it not ok that women are penalized by being statistically less likely to get an offer yet it’s just fine to penalize men on auto insurance for being statistically more likely to cause an accident?

Because men are statistically more likely to cause auto accidents. There is no evidence that women are not statistically more likely to be bad at getting good work done at companies like Amazon. It's pretty simple.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's taking a little longer than it should, but people are finally starting to realize that the actual reason there aren't as many women in software is because they've chosen not to be. They're wired differently and therefore have different interests.

I see this argument a lot but your exposition is less inflammatory than most. Please note this: when you tell a mixed-gender group of people that all women are "wired" to not like programming, you are telling the women who do like programming (which, let's be real, is most of them on Hacker News) that they're in effect not real women (or defective women, in an engineering sense). Or that they don't count. Since you'r…

> that all women are "wired" to not like programming

But nobody has ever said that. They say that women are more likely to be.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#247
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument a lot but your exposition is less inflammatory than most. Please note this: when you tell a mixed-gender group of people that all women are "wired" to not like programming, you are telling the women who do like programming (which, let's be real, is most of them on Hacker News) that they're in effect not real women (or defective women, in an engineering sense). Or that they don't count. Since you'r…

>you are telling the women who do like programming (which, let's be real, is most of them on Hacker News) that they're in effect not real women woah what? no that is not at all what he's saying. If someone tells me "most american men like the NFL" and I don't like the NFL, I would be insane to take that as someone telling me "you're not a real man" and think they're trying to "tell me what a real man is." I can see h…

I hope you're actually an American who doesn't like the NFL so you can tell me how well the analogy follows.

The conversational equivalent using the NFL example would go something like this:

"Why are there no Americans at my favorite chess forum?"

"Americans like the NFL. They're just more into brute force and camaraderie, especially American men. Chess can't really appeal to them. I mean, back in the Neolithic, a modern day chess grandmaster, if he managed to not burn in the sun and see an angry cougar 15 meters away, would probably have died. American men are just closer to their nature. I have this cousin who's American, I have attempted for years to get him to play chess and no dice. Not during the season, anyway."

"I mean sure but there are American chess clubs? Some Americans like chess? Surely the cougar thing is not relevant to my original scope?"

Now, you're a chess loving American. You're not at the first poster's forum because you can't be on all the forums in the world, and it's true love of chess is not exactly common in the US. However, how would you feel reading the description of how apparently literally everyone else in America loves the NFL? Would you feel proud to be American? Would you feel like the poster who made the NFL comment is likely to be an American man? Would you be more, or less likely to read his further arguments on different or related topics, for example, his opinion on American politics?

While I'm sure that there are plenty of women who don't mind those arguments being made, and I think to an extent this forum would select for those women anyway, it remains an argument that is, in essence, 1) prone to being misinterpreted and 2) a little blind to your audience. (the subject is chess - you are talking to a chess fan - for all you know the chess fan also loves the NFL)

And those arguments are less effective than other arguments, for example, the kinds that 1) don't make assumptions of their audience and 2) are closely related to the topic.

(I realise this digression itself is totally off-topic and I'm sorry. I'm not interested in monologuing or haranguing the poster or anything. I hope it, and the little NFL parable, showed you and the people who usually make that argument without thinking about who reads it, a slightly different side, and that you may consider it if in the future you should have longer debates on relevant subjects with people whose opinion and background you don't know a priori. And thank you to anyone who read it.)

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#249
One of the first good critiques of the "oncoming AI apocalypse" that I've seen is exactly this: the encoding of existing biases into the resulting AI system.

But, it also means that bias is now measurable...

...and there were more than a few papers at NIPS that were directly dealing with "fairness" in a NN, aimed at addressing and using these issues and effects.

Re: Amazon scraps secret AI recruiting tool that showed bias against women

#250
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last place I worked at had to invest in additional resources to hire several females because the office was mostly male and applicants were overwhelmingly male. We did eventually find a few great female applicants, but it took a lot of work and a lot of time dedicated specifically to that goal. There does not exist some magical undiscovered pool of talented female engineers that are being turned away by biased recrui…

Can you share a little more what you did specifically to find female candidates?

Not the person you responded to, but a few hiring managers at my office found once they changed up the language in the job listing it made a huge improvement in female applications. If your staff is predominately male then you're wording will skew a particular way that may not seem inviting. Glassdor has a write up on how to go about removing gender bias with links out to studies: https://www.glassdoor.com/employers/blog/10-ways-remove-gend...
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