Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#241

Post by jlawson » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:21 AM UTC

wingworks wrote: post #210

JonathonW wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction being that Sonos updates rarely take more than a minute or two, and I've never seen one that was actually mandatory (the controller app will bug you about it, but it usually works anyways). Would be nice if it could automatically update while idle and I never had to worry about it, but that hardly seems necessary IME. Granted, I've also never had Windows 10 unexpectedly reboot on me or force an update…

I agree I've never had Windows do an inconvenient update on me. But I'm like you, I don't ignore all the update warnings, I do it when I go to lunch or whatever. But I know lots of people who will seemingly not take note of any popups that come up and just ignore them forever. Have said that, these days it should be possible to build up a pattern of when you use your computer and do the update when it's never being u…

>these days it should be possible to build up a pattern of when you use your computer and do the update when it's never being used

This'll work for 99% of cases. The remaining 1% is millions and millions of people.

I wonder if the system could give you a few weeks grace time to update, and if you keep ignoring it the system starts slowing down (while explaining why and asking to update). Some people will try to ignore forever and there needs to be some way to motivate them to choose a time (instead of taking control away and risking choosing a very bad time).

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#242

Post by cxseven » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:22 AM UTC

tom_ wrote: post #186

mandeepj wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humble tip - You can pause updates for up to 45 days. During this period, you can enable them at your leisure. This is what I do when I'm leaving my computer for an overnight rendering.

My own humble tip - switch this shit off. Here's what I've found to work for me: 0. install whichever Windows 10 has the group policy editor - I've got Windows 10 Pro, I think. (I'm at home right now and my work laptop is at the office) 1. run gpedit.msc 2. Go to Local Computer Policy\Computer Configuration\Administrative Templates\Windows Components\Windows Update 3. Double-click Configure Automatic Updates 4. Set u…

Windows 10 Education also lets you do this, and is a lot less expensive than Pro. Sometimes it's free to members of certain organizations.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#243

Post by userbinator » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:32 AM UTC

winrid wrote: post #19

The whole user experience of installing Windows 10 is abysmal. Wife got a new laptop and I watched her to the initial setup. Stupid things like an "enter your pin" dialog that automatically opens another dialog that closes if you hit enter. So you quickly type your pin and hit enter and just see the dialog flash. Or the confusing "remove" button for the fingerprint scanner setup that just removes all of your fingerpr…

The product key re-entrance (or perhaps it was the first one? I don't remember now) dialog is also stupid in that the moment it detects you've entered the last letter, it immediately starts the activation process. Everyone who is used to typing in or pasting the key and then pressing Enter to submit it will end up canceling the activation, since the automatic focus immediately goes to the Cancel button when it detects the last letter entered. From my vague memory it was not like that in previous versions of Windows (enter product key, then press enter/click the button to continue) so what irritates me the most is that someone deliberately added code to implement this behaviour in opposition to probably every UI guide ever created.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#244

Post by sitepodmatt » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:37 AM UTC

skytreader wrote: post #184

sundvor wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never stops to amaze me how unwilling most people are to explore the latest Win10 options to always defer updates by number of days (eg stay a week behind on feature updates to let others be more on the cutting edge), or even temporarily freeze the windows update service by up to a two digit number of days. If I ever wanted to be sure that no updates took place I'd use the freeze. Switching OS might be a solution,…

I think the problem isn't just that Windows updates happen immediately by default. It's that Windows updates when you boot up your computer. See, turning on a computer is an explicit declaration that you want to use it. Windows updates ignores this declaration by taking that time to itself. It doesn't matter if I can defer the update by how many days if one day it will stop/delay me from using my computer when I want…

>Contrast that with Linux (Ubuntu distro in mind) where updates happen when the computer is shutting down.

Since when?

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#245

Post by userbinator » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:38 AM UTC

derefr wrote: post #54

barking wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They need to give you the choice on whether to update or not. If you choose not to they should just maybe give you a warning on every launch and leave it at that.

We're talking about herd immunity from viruses here. Imagine that there were a new deadly pandemic every few days. Should a human being, at that point, be allowed (by the social norms of their society, by law, whatever) to refuse to receive once-daily "vaccination updates"?

I remember a memorable comment here that went something like "Windows updates are like vaccinations that have a high chance of making you blind, grow an extra ear, or turn your skin green."

Besides, if you look at what sorts of vulnerabilities they're actually patching, the majority of them require local access anyway; remotely-exploitable-by-default ones (fortunately) tend to be few and far between.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#246

Post by lostmsu » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:40 AM UTC

kens wrote: post #115

I'm a tolerant person, but recently I switched from Windows to Mac because the forced Windows updates kept messing me up. One time I left a long simulation running overnight. In the morning, I was greeted by a computer that had automatically rebooted to install updates, killing my simulation. Another instance was my daughter's birthday party, where she wanted to show a movie. The computer decided to spend an hour doi…

You should blame your simulation software vendor (which could be yourself, lol). Windows gives software a way to tell, that computer is busy, and if your software did not do that, I am not sure how is this fault of Windows?

Without that, computer might go to sleep, which would happen on any other OS too under default settings.

See https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/api/winbase...

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#247

Post by ryandrake » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:43 AM UTC

lostmsu wrote: post #246

kens wrote: post #115

I'm a tolerant person, but recently I switched from Windows to Mac because the forced Windows updates kept messing me up. One time I left a long simulation running overnight. In the morning, I was greeted by a computer that had automatically rebooted to install updates, killing my simulation. Another instance was my daughter's birthday party, where she wanted to show a movie. The computer decided to spend an hour doi…

You should blame your simulation software vendor (which could be yourself, lol). Windows gives software a way to tell, that computer is busy, and if your software did not do that, I am not sure how is this fault of Windows? Without that, computer might go to sleep, which would happen on any other OS too under default settings. See https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/api/winbase...

The onus should not be on the user or the user's application to tell the computer "don't do this thing". It should be up to the user whether some thing gets done. The user is supposed to command the computer, not the other way around.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#248

Post by userbinator » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:44 AM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #173

alan_n wrote: post #148

So glad now I turned off Window's updates (because no matter what I did they kept installing when they shouldn't have). I have been considering moving to linux for a while now because there's finally good alternatives for some of the apps I use, and I'm definitely going to start the move now. I had all my user folders moved and this could have been me (and my backup drive just died too!). The user folders were actual…

A real Sophie's choice: have your data stolen by hackers because you're vulnerable, or have your data deleted by the patches that secure your system!

The former is blown out of proportion because the vast majority of vulnerabilities are only locally exploitable, and the rest is mostly "visit shady site in IE with default settings" with a tiny bit of "hackers can own your system if you connect it directly to the Internet and don't do anything other than leave it on." My thoughts on the above are, respectively, "meh", "why would you use IE with default settings" , and "yes I definitely need this fixed." Unfortunately Win10 doesn't give you that choice.

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#249

Post by fliesblackflags » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:47 AM UTC

pizzazzaro wrote: post #153

ledriveby wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure this is how ChromeOS' update system works.

Are you sure? Because ChromeOS is just a Gentoo fork where google replaced the package manager to support their binaries instead. Programs running in memory just stay running, even if you update the files that are those programs. This is how Linux works. Restart them when you need the new version. Its clean. Its easy. I kept watching netflix as firefox compiled (~30 mins), and got to close the browser after the next…

> google replaced the package manager

Google uses portage: http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/packages/portage

It would make more sense for Google to be using Portage to make/install their binary packages. Emerge and quickpkg can both make binary packages: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Binary_package_guide#Creating_b...

Re: Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports

#250

Post by ryandrake » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 2:57 AM UTC

ragequitta wrote: post #188

cm2187 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't change the fact that you end up having to actively manage the OS not screwing up your workflow, that's not how I would define "good". Plus I would always forget.

The alternative is horrifying though. No regular user ever updates their stuff unless they're forced to, and in a world of increasingly horrifying botnets that can cripple the world economy on command, I can see why having the average user update automatically is necessary. Note that the average user (even myself, who is fairly good at keeping the latest version of everything installed) wouldn't have this problematic…

Decades of force-feeding users unwanted features has trained them to not install updates. I know most people in my family flat out refuse to update software because they're afraid the developers will have decided to re-do the UI again, or move menu options around, or just break major functionality. So because we, as software engineers/companies, can't resist the urge to keep changing things and doing endless re-designs, end users are trained to not get the vital security updates they need.

As an industry we need to get better. A software update should mean things like "improved performance" and "better security", not "totally different UI" and "20 features nobody wants". If users really want the new shiny, it should be optional.