Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

euractiv.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 408 posts

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#241

Post by noobermin »

People especially here constantly rail against Europe, specifically their start-up scene, against taxes, against regulations, etc. At the same time, our cities are unlivable, inaccessible, crowded, our infrastructure is falling apart, a widening gap between the wealthy and the poor causing increases in homelessness in cities and opiod addiction in rural areas. Western Europe isn't utopia, but in many areas, their policies are actually in the public interest and raise most people up[0].

[0] Perhaps not natives, but that's another story.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#242

Post by rootusrootus »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #130

I'm guessing economies of scale will finish the job somewhere over the next decade already. If you operating any kind of vehicles commercially, eliminating fuel cost should be high on your agenda. Whether it is taxi's, buses, police vehicles, delivery vehicles, etc. For that kind of market what matters is the total cost of ownership. This is why many taxis were early adopters of hybrids. As soon as they become afford…

Seems like we need to see about 10K less capital cost, and/or less atrocious depreciation, and TCO should come into line with a comparable ICE. Solve that and maintain the range we've got in the latest crop of EVs, and I think they'll take over pretty steadily.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#243

Post by kwhitefoot »

cptaj wrote: post #132
WhompingWindows wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send yourself back in time to when less than 1% of the populace is using petrol cars to get around. In that timeframe of the early 1900's, it would've been incredibly hard to get around the rural areas as well, since they'd still be dominated by horse, foot, and perhaps bicycle traffic. Now, send yourself forward 100 years: it will be nearly impossible to use petrol-powered transport, and EV will be the standard. Say…

I absolutely agree with you about infrastructure. Its definitely coming and will cover most use cases. But I do wonder how we're gonna cover that last mile. Adding hundreds of miles of range to an ICE car is hilariously simple, just a couple of plastic containers in the trunk and you're good to go. Can't add extra batteries like that. Energy density is not a truism. Maybe portable ICE generators, sort of like hybrid…

> the hybrid tech. I don't know why its not dominating.

Because it isn't especially efficient.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#244

Post by outworlder »

olivermarks wrote: post #82
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more widely distributed than electricity?

Delivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges. Separately Norway is one of the richest countries on the planet thanks to its offshore oil. Their sovereign fund dwarfs Saudi Arabia in comparison so maybe they currently can cannibalize that revenue to build a supergrid. China is building an ultra high voltag…

> Delivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges.

If they have 240v outlets, that's half the battle. That is around 31 miles per hour of charge, from a standard outlet (although you have to make sure your wiring is good) without any extra infrastructure.

This may not be sufficient for a cross-country drive across the continental US, but for most european countries? You can drive 300 miles and charge overnight even with no fast charging at all.

Compare this with setting up gas stations (digging underground to install the tanks, logistics to keep them topped off, etc) and gasoline starts to look quite insane. It's just that we have this existing infrastructure built over a century that we take for granted.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#245

Post by sfsafa »

tialaramex wrote: post #127
ben_w wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worldwide, transport energy use is about 150% total electricity use — 30PWh/y vs. 20PWh/y. I’m not saying we can’t upgrade production (I’m actually significantly more optimistic than the best case IAE estimates), but it’s not as trivial as just installing some new wires and transformers.

Yeah, so, the first thing to know about that is ICE is ludicrously inefficient. Spinning all that metal at variable speed with tiny explosions is, unsurprisingly, not the best way to turn high density fuels into energy. The thing ICE had on its side is the energy density, on other metrics it's a bad deal (hence why free charging for EVs is affordable) So if you have 400MW of ICE cars you don't need 400MW of electrici…

"ludicrously inefficient"

No, they're not. They're, as implemented in a car, a ludicrous example of engineering compromises.

Put a hybrid drive methane spark-ignition high compression engine and you'll have similar CO2 emissions from a e-car powered by a thermal plant (the vast majority of our power). It'll cost as much as a Tesla too.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#246

Post by indemnity »

netcan wrote: post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

In my country (New Zealand) the fuel tax goes into the infrastructure fund which keeps roads maintained. It also funds public transport.

We’re going go have to come up with creative solutions when most vehicles are electric.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#247

Post by thinkling »

atombender wrote: post #229
tom_ wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average ? In real life?

I'm sure that they were using US gallons. Whether this is data is accurate is another matter. According to the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), Europe averaged 46 MPG (US gallons, "normalized to CAFE test cycles") in 2015 [1], compared to something like 37 MPG in the US. This NY Times article [2] summarizes the report, with some nice graphs. [1] https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publica…

I share your parent's skepticism. It seems obvious that cars sold in the US are not averaging 37 MPG when the average car is roughly a RAV4 that gets 22/29.(EDIT: It occurs to me that the RAV4 may be classified as a light truck -- even so, I can go pick a passenger car...)

As far as I can tell taking a quick look at your links, the difference can be in two things. First, these are fuel economy standards companies are expected to hit, and not reporting on whether they hit them or missed and paid penalties. Second there's the phrase "Assumes manufacturers fully use low-GWP A/C refrigerants credits". Apparently fuel economy numbers are boosted by these credits--actual fuel economy isn't the same thing, it appears?

(EDIT: Overall fuel economy for cars and trucks combined was 24.8 mpg in MY2015 [1])

[1] https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg....

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#248

Post by sbarker »

Theodores wrote: post #186
lsiunsuex wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the growl / sound / smell. The ability to modify, upgrade, "wrench on a car on the weekend" the ability to get beat on the track 1 weekend, drop a couple grand on new parts the next, then go back and beat them the following weekend. car shows and seeing a super charged mustang or camaro or twin turbos or something completely different someone came up with an idea for and built. the same way us programmers tinker and…

Sounds like when I early adopted digital photography. My friends with proper cameras told me how much there was to film grain, how they loved playing with chemicals and the rest of it. They sneered at my passion for digital photography claiming it was dull. Where are they now, on Instagram with an iPhone.

I see your point, but to be fair Kodak did bring film back. https://www.kodak.com/US/en/consumer/products/super8/super-8...

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#249

Post by outworlder »

maxxxxx wrote: post #188
walshemj wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Id like to see your figures on that.

I have no numbers but it seems a charging station is simpler. No gas tank to bury, no risk of leakage, no fire hazards.

A couple years ago, a quick charger (CHAdeMO, not Tesla's) cost about 50k. Not sure what kind of permits were required.

Can you build a gas station with 50k? How much is just the labor to bury the underground tank?

And that's a quick charger, which you would use mostly for trips. For most purposes you only need easily accessible power outlets (although the level 2 stations are far more convenient). Most cars are sitting in parking lots most of the time anyway.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#250

Post by gambiting »

wanderr wrote: post #189
gambiting wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I explained elsewhere - hybrids are exempt. And all current manufacturers can make all of their models into some extremely mild hybrids just to get around the ban. So expect to see a lot of models with 1bhp electric motors just to classify as hybrids coming out soon. And cars made before the ban will obviously be still allowed, so there's no issues there.

floatrock previously pointed out that your statement about hybrids being exempt does not appear to be true: "“In just 12 years, we will prohibit the sale of new diesel and petrol cars. And in 17 years, every new car in Denmark must be an electric car or other forms of zero-emissions car,” Rasmussen said, implying that hybrids will be phased out in 2035."

Uhmmmm....it does the exact opposite - it proves what I said. The law coming in 12 years will have an exemption for hybrids. The hybrid ban will come later(if ever)
Post reply on HN